Treating Montipora eating nudibranchs with potassium permanganate

[Crabby]

Has anyone tried to rid their tank of monti eating nudibranchs using the potassium permanganate treatment that Eric Borneman wrote about here?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/eb/index.php

I've lost a couple of monti frags already and they are munching on some, but not all of the monti colonies. I am thinking that a systematic removal of all montis from the tank with manual and chemical treatment, then leaving the main display free of montis for several months (3-6?) might help to rid the tank of the nudis.

Thanks!

 

[sfsuphysics]

dipping, yeah, but whole tank treatment... nuh uh.

Of course this was back in the day when I taught at a different school and was buddy buddy with the chemistry stock room guy

 

[Crabby]

Yeah - I'd remove all the montis and dip them. I fear that I wouldn't be able to get 100% of the monti coral out of the tank, as it's encrusted in places. Perhaps the nudis would eat what is left then starve? I'd have the corals in a temporary tank for 6 months or so...

Potassium permanganate is pretty cheap, and I can order it easily (actually, already did!).

 

[bondolo]

I recently lost a three month fight to montipora eating nudibranchs in my display tank. They had entered my tank as eggs on frags purchased in early December. There was no evidence of nudi activity on the frags or in any of the monti colonies at the two potential source locations where I got the frags (I'll never know which of the two locations was the source). I was/am extremely careful to avoid introducing them from my display tank to my frag tank thus far I've been successful. My few remaining montiporas in the frag tank remain unharmed.

With every infestation I povidone dipped everything repeatedly including whole encrusted rocks. They just kept coming back from eggs every 18-20 days. Povidone dipping kills the juveniles and adults just fine but apparently doesn't have any effect on eggs. I wanted to try a potassium permanganate dip because it kills the eggs as well but never found a "recipe" before the last round and now all the montis are gone. I'm now starving out any remaining nudibranchs for the next 3 months before putting any montis back into the tank.

I'll be very interested to hear your results even though I no longer have any montis to treat. I hate these nudibranchs.

 

[bondolo]

How did your potassium permanganate dipping go?

Even though I have been scrupulous about avoiding any cross contamination between my montipora nudibranch infested display tank and my frag tank I suddenly have monti nudis in my frag tank. :-( The frag tank has previously never had monti nudis. I suspect the source this time was a piece of encrusted rock I recently bought from a LFS that was going out of business. The bummer part is that I isolated it for close to a week and did two povidone dips on it before introducing it to my frag tank. I guess there were more goodies on the rock than I thought I was buying.

After losing one battle prolonged battle with monti nudis I have no confidence that they can be defeated by povidone dips alone. Even if it kills all the adults it takes only one egg sac to survive for the cycle to continue and povidone isn't effective against the egg sacs.

 

[GreshamH]

I got rid of them by:

actively removing any I see visually
dipping in TMPCC every few days and scrubbing the base for eggs
using a malanurus wrasse

Took 2 months, lost a few montis, but I have been clean since. Pretty easy to get rid of in fact once you have to deal with AEFW!!!!

 

[sfsuphysics]

To further add with the manual removal, go hunting after the lights have been out for a while, use a top down box or other acrylic "window" so you can easily see into the top of the tank, use a hand held flashlight so you can see , and I've found a good way is to use a syringe and simply pull back on it when near one and it sucks them up (turkey baster could work too, but that has a relatively weak "grab").. then squirt them into a bucket.

I had them once a long time ago, a lost just about all my montis because I got stupid and declared one rock was going to be monitpora only... only survivor was an orange digitata that was on the other side of the tank that was there from before.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Yeah - I'd remove all the montis and dip them. I fear that I wouldn't be able to get 100% of the monti coral out of the tank, as it's encrusted in places. Perhaps the nudis would eat what is left then starve? I'd have the corals in a temporary tank for 6 months or so...

Potassium permanganate is pretty cheap, and I can order it easily (actually, already did!).

How about nuking the encrusted stuff with NaOH or CaOH like you would Aiptasia?

 

[Crabby]

I haven't tried the potassium permanganate treatment yet. I also haven't done anything with manual removal. They are eating one coral, which is dinnerplate sized, so it'll take them a lot of time to munch it all up and have left almost all of the other montis alone.

I am going to try an experiment with gymnodorid nudibranchs. They may be a more effective biocontrol agent than wrasses as they prey on aeolid nudibranchs (the monti-eating type) by following their scent. I will also try the potassium permanganate soak, but for now I'm actually not trying to kill them until I can get a gymodorid or two for the experiment. That may be a month or so from now.

 

[GreshamH]

I haven't tried the potassium permanganate treatment yet. I also haven't done anything with manual removal. They are eating one coral, which is dinnerplate sized, so it'll take them a lot of time to munch it all up and have left almost all of the other montis alone.

I am going to try an experiment with gymnodorid nudibranchs. They may be a more effective biocontrol agent than wrasses as they prey on aeolid nudibranchs (the monti-eating type) by following their scent. I will also try the potassium permanganate soak, but for now I'm actually not trying to kill them until I can get a gymodorid or two for the experiment. That may be a month or so from now.

I have about a half dozen candidates for that experiment with one being about the best one I have ever seen... if I could get Steve @ Cortez to import them from Baja. Baja has one of the most veracious nudi eating nudis around. I've watched them GO TO TOWN on others when we were selling them. You see videos on this very one in a lot of the documovies on TV.

 

[bondolo]

I've found a bunch of resources that I didn't find the first time I searched back at the end of last year including a good recipe/procedure for potassium permanganate dip.

Scientific approach to determining how to use Potassium Permanganate effectively:

Reefkeeping Magazine: Two Potential Molluscides effective against pest Aeolid Nudibranchs common on species of Montipora in Aquaria

Two follow up notes I have seen from Eric Borneman indicate that he now suggests 0.1g per gallon of water for 45 minutes.

Good Basic overview article that ends with a dipping regime using Tetra Oomed and Lugol's:

Elimination of Predatory Nudibranchs

Another good overview:

Quality Reef Article on Montipora Nudibrachs

The best pictures:

Reef Central Thread on Montipora Nudibranch identification

Recipe Article I will likely follow if I get desperate and use potassium permanganate:

http://www.3reef.com/forums/diseases/montipora-eating-nudibranchs-46433.html

Control Measures:

Golden/Yellow Wrasse (halichoeres chrysus) seems to be the most consistently recommended. Though I note the Melanarus Wrasse (Halichoeres melanurus) you mentioned is also a Halichoeres species. WetWebMedia suggests that all Halichoeres are reasonably effective against montipora nudis (and flatworms too). Six line Wrasse may pick at the nudis but aren't fastidious in their removal.

(removed inaccurate info about camel shrimp)

Off to hunt nudis with a flashlight....

 

[bondolo]

I removed the bit about camel shrimp. Yikes. Yes, on further reading it seems that they will eat nearly everything living thing (except algaes) when hungry or just to see what it tastes like.

 

[GreshamH]

6 lines work great, they just can be rather lame to other fish. I use one now in my frag tank. Dude is just as fastidious as my malanurus was.

Camel shrimp will eat any coral you give them. I have had tens of thousands pass through my hands, trust me, I have seen them eat just about every coral we get in this trade. Little devils.

 

[GreshamH]

I've seen them eat algae as well, dying and dead algae. Those things are eating machines. I used them to clear my fuge of amphipods and it worked like a charm. I've seen them eat aptasia and even sponges.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

6 lines work great, they just can be rather lame to other fish. I use one now in my frag tank. Dude is just as fastidious as my malanurus was.

Camel shrimp will eat any coral you give them. I have had tens of thousands pass through my hands, trust me, I have seen them eat just about every coral we get in this trade. Little devils.

I didn't see the bit about camel shrimp before it was edited, but I have seen them offered as an AEFW treatment too. The idea is that you place the coral in a basket with the shrimp for no more than a few minutes.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

I haven't tried the potassium permanganate treatment yet. I also haven't done anything with manual removal. They are eating one coral, which is dinnerplate sized, so it'll take them a lot of time to munch it all up and have left almost all of the other montis alone.

I am going to try an experiment with gymnodorid nudibranchs. They may be a more effective biocontrol agent than wrasses as they prey on aeolid nudibranchs (the monti-eating type) by following their scent. I will also try the potassium permanganate soak, but for now I'm actually not trying to kill them until I can get a gymodorid or two for the experiment. That may be a month or so from now.

Hey Jonathon, I forgot your screen name on here but figured out it was you with all that latin talk!

Where are you getting the nudibranchs from? Really interested in seeing how that works out for you!

 

[Crabby]

I haven't tried the potassium permanganate treatment yet. I also haven't done anything with manual removal. They are eating one coral, which is dinnerplate sized, so it'll take them a lot of time to munch it all up and have left almost all of the other montis alone.

I am going to try an experiment with gymnodorid nudibranchs. They may be a more effective biocontrol agent than wrasses as they prey on aeolid nudibranchs (the monti-eating type) by following their scent. I will also try the potassium permanganate soak, but for now I'm actually not trying to kill them until I can get a gymodorid or two for the experiment. That may be a month or so from now.

Hey Jonathon, I forgot your screen name on here but figured out it was you with all that latin talk!

Where are you getting the nudibranchs from? Really interested in seeing how that works out for you!

Hi Matt,

I've asked numerous sources about getting some specimens. A few warm leads, but no slugs yet.

Jonathon (Crabby)

 

[GreshamH]

6 lines work great, they just can be rather lame to other fish. I use one now in my frag tank. Dude is just as fastidious as my malanurus was.

Camel shrimp will eat any coral you give them. I have had tens of thousands pass through my hands, trust me, I have seen them eat just about every coral we get in this trade. Little devils.

I didn't see the bit about camel shrimp before it was edited, but I have seen them offered as an AEFW treatment too. The idea is that you place the coral in a basket with the shrimp for no more than a few minutes.

It was suggested to use them like Peppermints for aptasia.. in tank treatment

 

[bondolo]

I haven't tried the potassium permanganate treatment yet. I also haven't done anything with manual removal. They are eating one coral, which is dinnerplate sized, so it'll take them a lot of time to munch it all up and have left almost all of the other montis alone.

I am going to try an experiment with gymnodorid nudibranchs. They may be a more effective biocontrol agent than wrasses as they prey on aeolid nudibranchs (the monti-eating type) by following their scent. I will also try the potassium permanganate soak, but for now I'm actually not trying to kill them until I can get a gymodorid or two for the experiment. That may be a month or so from now.

That sounds a bit too much like "Burke" from Aliens for me:

Okay, I know this is an emotional moment for all of us. I know that. But let's not make snap judgments, please. This is clearly an important species we're dealing with and I don't think that you or I, or anybody

, has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them.

Whereas I've already jumped to Ripley's position

I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Are Gymnodorid nudibranchs specialized selective eaters? Will it possible to keep them alive without a constant source of Aeolid nudibranchs?

 

[Thales]

6 lines work great, they just can be rather lame to other fish. I use one now in my frag tank. Dude is just as fastidious as my malanurus was.

Camel shrimp will eat any coral you give them. I have had tens of thousands pass through my hands, trust me, I have seen them eat just about every coral we get in this trade. Little devils.

I didn't see the bit about camel shrimp before it was edited, but I have seen them offered as an AEFW treatment too. The idea is that you place the coral in a basket with the shrimp for no more than a few minutes.

It was suggested to use them like Peppermints for aptasia.. in tank treatment

It was suggested to do it both ways - but isolating the camels seemed to make sense given their nature.

I have a feeling that pepperments will eat both AEFW and MN if they get hungry enough. I have a tank at work that I added peps too, didn't feed it much and the AEFW seem gone. Really scientifical. If anyone has some of either pest it would be cool to stick them and the coral in a small tank with peppermeints and see what happens.