Reef2reef sucks and discriminates

[rygh]

Suppression in an open forum when other groups can post is certainly pushing their views... if just silently.

Techinally yes. But beware of false equivalency.
There is a huge order of magnitude difference between deleting content and actively spewing hate speech.
Both are wrong, but you cannot simply lump them together as the same.

 

[Chromis]

I’m fully in support of our LGBTQ community, and will help however I can. I don’t think it matters even if R2R is in their legal right, if it is making anyone feel marginalized, then it’s no good.

Can we have a zoom meeting to discuss what to do next? Maybe those who otherwise wouldn’t speak up on a public forum with their ideas and suggestions would be more willing to share in a call with a supportive group. We can summarize the suggestions or action plan here afterward for those who can’t join the call and get further feedback.

 

[rygh]

Just a side explanation:
My personal opinion is total support for LGBTQ+ and doing what we can to stop R2R from doing this.
As an officer of BAR, I really have to hold back on any official statements without full board and club meetings and approvals.
Sorry if my comments seem to flip-flop a bit.

 

[JVU]

There already is a petition circulating that Rich showed us before about this. That is a good venue for showing support for this, and is much higher profile than anything BAR could do. And it has the huge advantage of allowing people to show support without dragging along a bunch of people who don’t want to. I read it, support it, and signed it. I don’t see how BAR should get further involved since our club doesn’t have any relationship with R2R besides having members in both in the same hobby. And those members are speaking out, as they should.

 

[Bruce Spiegelman]

There already is a petition circulating that Rich showed us before about this. That is a good venue for showing support for this, and is much higher profile than anything BAR could do. And it has the huge advantage of allowing people to show support without dragging along a bunch of people who don’t want to. I read it, support it, and signed it. I don’t see how BAR should get further involved since our club doesn’t have any relationship with R2R besides having members in both in the same hobby. And those members are speaking out, as they should.

@JVU Can we poll the members on this?

 

[ofzakaria]

There already is a petition circulating that Rich showed us before about this. That is a good venue for showing support for this, and is much higher profile than anything BAR could do. And it has the huge advantage of allowing people to show support without dragging along a bunch of people who don’t want to. I read it, support it, and signed it. I don’t see how BAR should get further involved since our club doesn’t have any relationship with R2R besides having members in both in the same hobby. And those members are speaking out, as they should.

What you are describing is what others have done. The question is what can BAR do? I think its worth discussing it and decide.

 

[ofzakaria]

Just a side explanation:
My personal opinion is total support for LGBTQ+ and doing what we can to stop R2R from doing this.
As an officer of BAR, I really have to hold back on any official statements without full board and club meetings and approvals.
Sorry if my comments seem to flip-flop a bit.

Hence the right thing here is to discuss it and see what BAR members think.

 

[ofzakaria]

The discussion can also as simple as. Should BSR take a stand discrimination against LGBTQ community, r2r or not.
Do we want to have a message of support to the community?
We are seeing oppression happening against some of our reefing members..do we want to say BAR stand with you?

 

[ofzakaria]

I’m fully in support of our LGBTQ community, and will help however I can. I don’t think it matters even if R2R is in their legal right, if it is making anyone feel marginalized, then it’s no good.

Can we have a zoom meeting to discuss what to do next? Maybe those who otherwise wouldn’t speak up on a public forum with their ideas and suggestions would be more willing to share in a call with a supportive group. We can summarize the suggestions or action plan here afterward for those who can’t join the call and get further feedback.

Liz, not sure if you still doing speakers thing. Maybe we can add a speaker from the rainbow community like what @Thales Did.
Food for thoughts.
I bet we can bring on evolved to discuss wrasses and touch upon the topic of oppression..

 

[rygh]

I do feel BAR should take a stand in support of our diverse members.
BAR is the sum of its members, it impacts our members, so this is an issue for BAR.

But honestly, BAR is doing that right now.
BAR is giving people a voice here to complain against R2R.
And key : BAR is providing people a good alternative reef site. A safe haven, free from discrimination.

I do not feel BAR should take a stand directly against R2R.
That is not just standing up for our members, but political activism AGAINST another organization, and not part of our charter.

 

[JVU]

@JVU Can we poll the members on this?

Anyone can start a poll if you are just looking to gauge interest. I haven’t seen any actual proposals that could be polled on effectively yet though. And I can’t think of any off the top of my head that would make sense (not saying there aren’t any).

Anything official from BAR would have to come as the result of our standard rules including a Board member making a specific motion, Board discussion, and Board vote. The Board cares a lot about the members. We also have to think about how this fits into our Mission.

 

[ofzakaria]

I do feel BAR should take a stand in support of our diverse members.
BAR is the sum of its members, it impacts our members, so this is an issue for BAR.

But honestly, BAR is doing that right now.
BAR is giving people a voice here to complain against R2R.
And key : BAR is providing people a good alternative reef site. A safe haven, free from discrimination.

I do not feel BAR should take a stand directly against R2R.
That is not just standing up for our members, but political activism AGAINST another organization, and not part of our charter.

I think its sad you feel this way.
I also think its contradictory on one hand we say we support and we want to empower members on the other hand 2 BOD openly advice against it.

At least am glad members of bar are discussing this.

 

[JVU]

I think its sad you feel this way.
I also think its contradictory on one hand we say we support and we want to empower members on the other hand 2 BOD openly advice against it.

At least am glad members of bar are discussing this.

I think you are misunderstanding what is being said, which is even more sad. And the root cause of many of the terrible things in the world, including discrimination.

We are seeing obsession happening against some of our reefing members..do we want to say BAR stand with you?

I bet we can bring on evolved to discuss wrasses and touch upon the topic of obsession..

You keep saying obsession, is that an autocorrect or is that what you mean?

 

[ofzakaria]

I think you are misunderstanding what is being said, which is even more sad. And the root cause of many of the terrible things in the world, including discrimination.


You keep saying obsession, is that an autocorrect or is that what you mean?

That was an autocorrect. I meant oppression, thanks for the heads up.

I do not think its productive to debate what discrimination mean to you vs to me and that is ok.

 

[RandyC]

That is not just standing up for our members, but political activism AGAINST another organization, and not part of our charter.

This is the key item. Regardless of where you stand on the issue, BAR is not and should not be a political activist site. People of all walks of life are probably here to enjoy reef talk and get help with their reefs and escape the pressures of real life. If you choose to participate in or discuss activism, your choice, but don’t force that on all members.

If you feel the need to organize something, there’s nothing wrong with that. But, I hope BAR doesn’t start taking policy positions on issues. What’s next? Gun control? Abortion? Packing the Supreme Court?

 

[ofzakaria]

This is the key item. Regardless of where you stand on the issue, BAR is not and should not be a political activist site. People of all walks of life are probably here to enjoy reef talk and help with their reefs and escape the pressures of real life. If you choose to participate or discuss in activism, your choice, but don’t force that on all members.

If you feel the need to organize something, there’s nothing wrong with that. But, I hope BAR doesn’t start taking policy positions on issues. What’s next? Gun control? Abortion? Packing the Supreme Court?

Randy, Would discussing covid and the medical system as an example be different? We discuss these topics here do not we?
The issue is when we label things political while other not.
Ofcourse you are entitled to what you think, so as everyone else.

 

[Bruce Spiegelman]

This is the key item. Regardless of where you stand on the issue, BAR is not and should not be a political activist site. People of all walks of life are probably here to enjoy reef talk and get help with their reefs and escape the pressures of real life. If you choose to participate in or discuss activism, your choice, but don’t force that on all members.

If you feel the need to organize something, there’s nothing wrong with that. But, I hope BAR doesn’t start taking policy positions on issues. What’s next? Gun control? Abortion? Packing the Supreme Court?

The things on your list are political "things." That's a completely different animal than racism or bigotry.

Let me ask you this. If R2R took a "silent" stand against African-Americans, and removed their posts would you think BAR should discuss it both internally and externally?

 

[rygh]

I think its sad you feel this way.
I also think its contradictory on one hand we say we support and we want to empower members on the other hand 2 BOD openly advice against it.

At least am glad members of bar are discussing this.

If you think John and I are against supporting and empowering our members, you are not reading what we have to say.

Emotionally charged arguments can do that. People stop reading and just react.

 

[svreef]

I think its sad you feel this way.
I also think its contradictory on one hand we say we support and we want to empower members on the other hand 2 BOD openly advice against it.

At least am glad members of bar are discussing this.

No one is openly advising against “it” - when “it” means to empower, support and stand with anyone being discriminated against.
They are advising against the club taking a position directly aimed at R2R. These are different things.

 

[RandyC]

The things on your list are political "things." That's a completely different animal than racism or bigotry.

Let me ask you this. If R2R took a "silent" stand against African-Americans, and removed their posts would you think BAR should discuss it both internally and externally?

Talking about it and letting people know it’s happening is different than having BAR taking a position on it. Look, I’m not saying what they’re doing is right or wrong. My point is people are signing up and PAYING for a reefing forum/organization to talk about reefing, coral, fish and equipment. Not take stances on a race, gender or political issue. Especially one that’s not related to reefing. That’s my issue with it. I’m not saying no one should talk about it.

should we next go after other non-reef forums for being discriminatory too?