Featured Club rules updated (reverted 6/3)

[Darkxerox]

Hi all,

Post BAR BOD meeting on 6/2, commentary in this thread, in person commentary at the meeting by supporting members, and vote by the board, the rule will be reverted to prior state. Thank you for the discussion and information. See the meeting minutes here.

With the new website launch, we wanted to make sure that a new rule was implemented to support the club's north star of ethical husbandry.

• In the interest of responsible husbandry, all livestock listed on the forum must be received and conditioned in the Sponsor’s or Member's systems prior to being offered for sale, thereby ensuring members receive healthy, stable livestock. E.g. no bag lot sales.

What does this mean? Well it means we can't use the website or DMs to organize preorders or group buys of live animals where you'd go to someone's house and take home bags out of their Styrofoam container that were sitting in dirty water for hours/days. These are referred to as bag lot sales, transshipments, etc. Sometimes things work out great, but there's just too many horror stories from longtime hobbyists of things going wrong. This applies to BOD, businesses, members, and sponsors so fairness is kept across the board. We can't police anywhere outside the forum of course.

Full code of conduct and posting rules are still located here or in the ABOUT BAR dropdown menu on the top of your screen. Thank you.

Thomas and the BAR BOD

 

[richiev]

Can you give examples? Eg as written this effectively means no group buys outside of dry goods?

Clean up crews (snails, hermits, urchins), macros, pods, corals, fish, ... all are live; I assume this is really referring to fish and possibly coral? Also maybe a dumb question, but what does this mean for frag swaps where things are commonly left in bags or little cups with minimal heating for hours?

I'm not trying to be controversial, regardless of personal view, I think more detail would be helpful to avoid confusion

It'd also be interesting to see if there could be corresponding BAR equipment for this. Eg help support group buys by having 20 gallon aquariums with full isolation setup that people could use. Get the bulk order, throw it all in a tank, have people pick up within X days. Otherwise if it's encouraging people to put these things in their own tanks directly which is indirectly encouraging poor QT processes.

Double bonus points if there was a LFS agreement where somehow we could encourage periodic (monthly?) bulk purchases of things through a LFS who would handle onboarding. Clean up crew January, Marco March, ....

Basically something that turns it from a "no bulk buys" to "BAR enables bulk buys".

 

[Darkxerox]

Can you give examples? Eg as written this effectively means no group buys outside of dry goods?

Clean up crews (snails, hermits, urchins), macros, pods, corals, fish, ... all are live; I assume this is really referring to fish and possibly coral? Also maybe a dumb question, but what does this mean for frag swaps where things are commonly left in bags or little cups with minimal heating for hours?

I'm not trying to be controversial, regardless of personal view, I think more detail would be helpful to avoid confusion

It'd also be interesting to see if there could be corresponding BAR equipment for this. Eg help support group buys by having 20 gallon aquariums with full isolation setup that people could use. Get the bulk order, throw it all in a tank, have people pick up within X days. Otherwise if it's encouraging people to put these things in their own tanks directly which is indirectly encouraging poor QT processes.

Double bonus points if there was a LFS agreement where somehow we could encourage periodic (monthly?) bulk purchases of things through a LFS who would handle onboarding. Clean up crew January, Marco March, ....

Basically something that turns it from a "no bulk buys" to "BAR enables bulk buys".

Basically any live animals that were shipped (excluding food like copepods, rotifers) need to be given a chance to recover/eat/condition before being sold/transferred to another member. Animals in the swap all come out of member tanks or sponsor tanks and are already acclimated to aquarium life, plus they aren't shipped overseas/cross country.

@fishy408 can talk with our local sponsors to see if they're interested in hosting clean up crew events as that's a great idea to minimize waste and animal losses.

 

[RandyC]

To be honest, this just sounds over reaching and unnecessary. So no group buys from biota can be run by members? Nothing from salty bottom or reef cleaners? I can't share the wealth the if I happen to find a great deal from a vendor if I purchase things in bulk. Assuming every one knows the risk, what's the problem?

The risk is no more than me buying directly from an LFS or an online vendor. I get the sentiment of what you're doing, but this just sounds like over policing.

 

[Turkeysammich]

To be honest, this just sounds over reaching and unnecessary. So no group buys from biota can be run by members? Nothing from salty bottom or reef cleaners? I can't share the wealth the if I happen to find a great deal from a vendor if I purchase things in bulk. Assuming every one knows the risk, what's the problem?

The risk is no more than me buying directly from an LFS or an online vendor. I get the sentiment of what you're doing, but this just sounds like over policing.

I’m with Randy on this one. Honestly, I liked Arnold’s clam, sps, grab bag sales NOT to be confused with bag lot sales. They were fun to me. It made part of being a member enjoyable. It’s also nice to get a little discount on such an expensive hobby.
I do understand why BOD has changed the rules. I also understand that I wouldn’t buy fish / corals from certain stores / people cuz I know their water quality is horrible. I would take my chances with transship, wholesale over those other places.
This place is meant to educate and inform. Not police. If you make a mistake / horrible decision. That’s on you. We are all responsible for our own actions.

 

[ClearWaterAquarium]

So how long do stores have to wait before selling livestock? I know my competitors and your sponsors sell new lifestock day of delivery. Do they now need to wait? And if so how long? A day? A week? A month?

 

[tribbitt]

First of all, thanks to the BOD who is working to try and make sure the club remains as ethical as it set out to be.

It does seem to me that this policy will not actually improve ethicality. An animal already goes through many hands when farmed/collected before the hobbyist. I do not see why requiring an extra change of hands (importer/wholesaler -> LFS -> hobbyist) improves the chances for the animal. It seems like a feel good policy which only reduces the mortality WE see upon introduction to home aquaria, while actually increasing the amount of stressors an animal goes through overall. And it disconnects us from the realities of transporting these animals around if we only ever see the few that made it.

On the other hand, @Thales once mentioned what he calls a "cut flower mentality": when prices are low, the live animal is treated as disposable, almost expected to die. We've seen this with bettas and neon tetras in the freshwater world. Receiving an animal for cheaper definitely lessens the energy spent to make sure it's happy, whether conscious or unconscious, at least enough for us to pay attention to this effect.

I think there are better ways to handle this. I really like what @richiev said about BAR enabling group buys. We can figure out a way to do it right instead of prohibiting them outright, maybe add to our BARCODE of equipment to help.

 

[RandyC]

Also, who was pushing for this rule? Were there a good number of supporting members that wanted this?

 

[MichaelB]

This I recall was a touchy discussion. I didn’t personally agree with the blanket approach to all live animal group buys. I thought source and location of where the animals were aquired should be at the for front of considering if it's ethical or not. At the same time I couldn't in good conscious not agree there that should be some rule in place governing bag lot sales specifically from some vendors that have does this daily/ weekly with zero concern for the well being of animals in there care.

I hope prehaps at somepoint maybe this subject of bag lots (extremely broad and not inclusive or considerate of what in my sole opinion should be taken into account)
will be revised in such a way that's more considerate of the various circumstances.

Hopefully we can all act like mature adults and not let things spiral into discordant communication over our different stances on this touchy subject. This is a great club and I believe the best is yet to come.

 

[Alexander1312]

I have no idea what the context is of this but I can guess.

I do not think corals or fish should be purchased directly from the place of (foreign) origin for a number of reasons without professional conditioning first. This should exclude however captive bred live stock IMO.

It would also be great to continue to allow reefcleaner group buys.

 

[PjFish]

Honestly is buying non QT fish from LFS un ethical husbandry already potential exposing all the existing stock to diseases? With all the fish being swapped around between BAR members plus numerous ich journals odds maybe more favorable getting individual bagged fish vs exposure to all new fish dumped into a tank or existing fish with no QT protocols. Very small percentage of bar members and LFS actually follow qt for corals and fish.. But in the long run each to their own always going to be folks gambling at LFS’s while at the glass windows!

 

[Slingfox]

Seems like an unnecessary and counterproductive policy especially with clean-up crew given that High Tide Aquatics is the only LFS in the Bay Area which keeps CUC in fishless tanks. Even a large vendor like Neptune Aquatics puts random fish with their CUC pretty much every time I check.

Also, what about group buys of coral from a vendor like Thirsty’s Reef? A group buy was organized a few months ago to get free shipping. There is no animal cruelty involved there.

Is the club going to start trying to police how long a shipment needs to be “conditioned” for in order to not violate this policy? Do we care about the conditions livestock is “conditioned” under?

As stated above, several LFS are willing to sell fish and coral the day they arrive. That is okay I suppose since it isn’t widely advertised?

 

[Apon]

Just curious, was there a vote on this? I didn't see any notes on it.

 

[BAYMAC]

I support this. Might need a little rework, but the idea is certainly sound!

 

[SupraSaltyReefer]

Just curious, was there a vote on this? I didn't see any notes on it.

Your dim sum group buy was the last straw......lol jk

 

[Turkeysammich]

Your dim sum group buy was the last straw......lol jk

You can watch me eat dim sum next time. No soup for you.

 

[Edgar Sandoval]

Also, who was pushing for this rule? Were there a good number of supporting members that wanted this?

Probably the other LFS that are friends with the BOD

 

[RandyC]

Probably the other LFS that are friends with the BOD

If there's any truth this, why are we pushing LFS needs over what supporting members actually want? Doesn't seem like there was any discussion or initiation from any supporting members about this rule change. If this is how this came about, this isn't a direction I would support.

 

[spuri87]

Probably the other LFS that are friends with the BOD

THIS!! I can’t speak for all but I am sure most of us feel this way! This has been a disappointing post.. and clearly most people don’t like being policed around! I personally don’t think it’s unethical to buy live stock out of the box.. haven’t we all bought livestock online? Do we know how they ‘condition’ or if they are actually doing the same thing as a ‘particular’ LFS did locally - just pass along the orders directly to the customer! I have been feeling unsettled since the morning after Clearwater’s post about demotion from being a sponsor was deleted.. As a group, we need to be more transparent and tell what needs to be done to become a sponsor, we can’t demote them or delete posts - it’s insane and makes me feel really bad.. Ed is a wonderful human being who has helped many of us in one way or the other (I am sure most of us having Yellow tangs would agree, even if that counts as a ‘small’ financial help).. he has 3 beautiful kids, and is courageous enough to run a business that can literally bankrupt him if 1 thing goes wrong (we all know the fear of crashes and what all can go wrong in this hobby)! He is constantly finding ways to make money while also helping supporting members, by enforcing rules calling his ways unethical is not fair! We need to be inclusive towards all our LFS the same way.. this wonderful group is full of mature folks who knows what they are doing understands the risks involved when buying something! Ed isn’t knocking on doors trying to sell stuff, he just promotes like any other business owner should do and it’s on his customers to buy from him or not, understanding the risks involved! If we call this unethical than we should ban buying anywhere online as well for the reason shared above! What’s even the definition of ‘conditioning’? We need to define how many days of QT outside of the bag before LFS can sell them! All LFS should have equal opportunity to find new ways to promote or sell their business.. please remember, it’s not just an expensive hobby for us, cost of running such a business is huge as well with all the known and unknown risks involved!

Sorry for ranting here, I am just not feeling good about this post and Clearwater’s demotion from being a sponsor to not being a sponsor without any transparency.

 

[VacavilleFC]

I dont think my opinion matters much but this is a weird rule to suddenly have after years without it.

its basically forcing whoever is receiving the order to dip and quarantine all corals and have a quarantine tank specifically for orders like this. and also makes them responsible if anything dies while in their custody.

also possibly causing the spread of more unwanteds,because they are all being housed together and no qt is perfect ( receiver is not a lfs we can't expect them to set up multiple tanks)

if CuC how are they expected to keep separate hundreds maybe thousands of snails and hermits and things that may not get along, and then also have to keep inventory so everyone gets their order?

hasn't the previous way of just everyone meeting on arrival day and divying it up been just fine In the past?

and what about die off? last people to pick up just get shorted because other people picked the best survivors up already?