Featured Club rules updated

[RandyC]

The ban doesn't have to get that deep, you sure are taking this hard. Sure its going to happen, guess where its not going to happen? You can't police the world, but you can your own forum.

The fact is, you guys are really late to the party. This idea predates BAR and goes back to BARE.

We have never supported bag sales.

On the topic, guess what caused the rift and inception of BAR... a group buy gone bad.

If it's not that deep then explain why an LFS does better than a BAR member handling incoming livestock and why that's more ethical. Been searching for the logic on this.

20-30 years ago, I probably would have agreed an LFS did better, but so much more is understood nowadays. Can't just say, it's always been that way, so it has to stay that way.

 

[grizfyrfyter]

The ban doesn't have to get that deep, you sure are taking this hard. Sure its going to happen, guess where its not going to happen? You can't police the world, but you can your own forum.

The fact is, you guys are really late to the party. This idea predates BAR and goes back to BARE.

We have never supported bag sales.

On the topic, guess what caused the rift and inception of BAR... a group buy gone bad.

I'm not taking this hard, just pointing out what I see. But, I'll keep to myself if this is the attitude I'm going to get.
Peace.

 

[robert4025]

Transshipped corals endure exceptionally long transit times when shipped from Asia and other parts of the world. After 24 to 48 hours in transit, they typically arrive first at a forward operating base (FOB) located nearest to the departure airports — most commonly on the West Coast, East Coast, or in the Southern United States.

Upon arrival at the FOB, the animals may wait at the airport for hours — sometimes days — while undergoing inspection by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in accordance with CITES regulations. By this point, the water they have been sitting in is often severely fouled, making time an absolutely critical factor.

Once cleared, reputable transshipping companies will re-bag the corals with fresh water and oxygen before shipping them onward. Depending on the final destination and available connecting flights, the animals may remain bagged for many additional hours — or even longer if delays or connection issues arise.

As you can imagine, this entire process subjects the animals to an extraordinary number of transitions, each one compounding the stress on creatures that are already in a deeply vulnerable state.

Unfortunately, not all transshipping companies follow responsible practices. Re-bagging and re-oxygenating costs both money and time, and some companies choose to skip this step entirely, shipping the animals directly to the next leg of their journey without any intervention. This is at the heart of the ethical debate surrounding the sale of transshipped animals directly out of the bag.

When hobbyists purchase livestock under these conditions, some argue they are prioritizing cost savings over animal welfare — a trade-off that many in the hobby find unacceptable. For others, it remains a deeply personal and difficult judgment call.

It is also worth clarifying what the term transshipped actually means within the aquarium trade. It refers specifically to animals that have been shipped via international channels and cleared through U.S. Fish and Wildlife — not to animals that have been held and rested in a local wholesaler’s system for more than 24 hours. That distinction matters, because 24 hours of proper rest can significantly improve an animal’s chances of survival. That recovery window is not a luxury — it is a critical part of responsible husbandry.

Having been personally involved in transshipping for over 20 years, I may not have formal studies to point to — but experience carries its own form of evidence. What I can say with certainty is that selling animals straight out of the bag, without allowing them adequate time to recover and stabilize, is a poor practice with real consequences. I have seen firsthand what works and what doesn’t when it comes to shipping and selling live animals, and those lessons are not ones I take lightly.

I hope that by sharing my experience, I can contribute meaningfully to this discussion and help each of you arrive at a well-informed decision. This is a wonderful club, and one that has evolved tremendously over the years. Perhaps the membership is ready to do things differently — and I respect that completely.

What I do hope is that this decision is made collectively, through open discussion and a proper vote, so that every member has a voice in the outcome. Whatever direction the club chooses to go, I will support it wholeheartedly — as long as it remains something I can align with from a business standpoint.

Cheers
-Robert

 

[RandyC]

Transshipped corals endure exceptionally long transit times when shipped from Asia and other parts of the world. After 24 to 48 hours in transit, they typically arrive first at a forward operating base (FOB) located nearest to the departure airports — most commonly on the West Coast, East Coast, or in the Southern United States.

Upon arrival at the FOB, the animals may wait at the airport for hours — sometimes days — while undergoing inspection by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in accordance with CITES regulations. By this point, the water they have been sitting in is often severely fouled, making time an absolutely critical factor.

Once cleared, reputable transshipping companies will re-bag the corals with fresh water and oxygen before shipping them onward. Depending on the final destination and available connecting flights, the animals may remain bagged for many additional hours — or even longer if delays or connection issues arise.

As you can imagine, this entire process subjects the animals to an extraordinary number of transitions, each one compounding the stress on creatures that are already in a deeply vulnerable state.

Unfortunately, not all transshipping companies follow responsible practices. Re-bagging and re-oxygenating costs both money and time, and some companies choose to skip this step entirely, shipping the animals directly to the next leg of their journey without any intervention. This is at the heart of the ethical debate surrounding the sale of transshipped animals directly out of the bag.

When hobbyists purchase livestock under these conditions, some argue they are prioritizing cost savings over animal welfare — a trade-off that many in the hobby find unacceptable. For others, it remains a deeply personal and difficult judgment call.

It is also worth clarifying what the term transshipped actually means within the aquarium trade. It refers specifically to animals that have been shipped via international channels and cleared through U.S. Fish and Wildlife — not to animals that have been held and rested in a local wholesaler’s system for more than 24 hours. That distinction matters, because 24 hours of proper rest can significantly improve an animal’s chances of survival. That recovery window is not a luxury — it is a critical part of responsible husbandry.

Having been personally involved in transshipping for over 20 years, I may not have formal studies to point to — but experience carries its own form of evidence. What I can say with certainty is that selling animals straight out of the bag, without allowing them adequate time to recover and stabilize, is a poor practice with real consequences. I have seen firsthand what works and what doesn’t when it comes to shipping and selling live animals, and those lessons are not ones I take lightly.

I hope that by sharing my experience, I can contribute meaningfully to this discussion and help each of you arrive at a well-informed decision. This is a wonderful club, and one that has evolved tremendously over the years. Perhaps the membership is ready to do things differently — and I respect that completely.

What I do hope is that this decision is made collectively, through open discussion and a proper vote, so that every member has a voice in the outcome. Whatever direction the club chooses to go, I will support it wholeheartedly — as long as it remains something I can align with from a business standpoint.

Cheers
-Robert

Robert,

I appreciate you responding to this thread. In your experience, what constitutes "allowing them adequate time to recover and stabilize." Is there something that you found that is required that a typical hobbyist wouldn't normally do? I'm genuinely curious as to what enables higher success rate in survival. Perhaps this is something hobbyists/BAR members can adopt to cases other than "transshipping cases" that enables us to increase our survival rates and assimilation to our tanks.

 

[tribbitt]

When hobbyists purchase livestock under these conditions, some argue they are prioritizing cost savings over animal welfare — a trade-off that many in the hobby find unacceptable. For others, it remains a deeply personal and difficult judgment call

From an LFS perspective, what differences are there between yourself receiving these animals and hobbyists receiving them, in terms of treatment for the animal? Very curious if you have experience that could be shared. Learning to receive shipped animals is increasingly important, especially with the rise of captive-bred fish being shipped directly to hobbyists.

 

[robert4025]

From an LFS perspective, what differences are there between yourself receiving these animals and hobbyists receiving them, in terms of treatment for the animal? Very curious if you have experience that could be shared. Learning to receive shipped animals is increasingly important, especially with the rise of captive-bred fish being shipped directly to hobbyists.

Great question! Let me see if I can answer it properly using AI’s help…lol

When corals arrive via transhipment, they’re often already under significant stress. A typical box contains 15-20 pieces, and the water conditions inside are frequently poor — suppliers may use poorly buffered synthetic or local saltwater, and the organic waste produced during transit can cause dramatic pH crashes. While low pH helps suppress ammonia toxicity for fish, it’s particularly harmful to corals and can compromise an entire box of animals.

This is where the LFS experience diverges from the hobbyist experience in a meaningful way. When a store receives a stressed box of 15 corals, they can place everything into a single, well-maintained system — stable parameters, good water chemistry, consistent care. That controlled environment gives the whole batch the best possible chance at recovery.

When those same 15 corals are shipped directly to 15 different hobbyists, however, you’ve introduced 15 variables. Water quality, experience level, and tank maturity will vary widely from one recipient to the next. Some may have ideal setups, but others may not — and that inconsistency across the board pulls the overall survival rate of that batch down considerably.

So the core difference isn’t just about expertise; it’s about standardization. An LFS acts as a single, controlled recovery point, whereas direct-to-hobbyist shipping distributes both the animals and the risk across many unpredictable environments.

 

[RandyC]

Great question! Let me see if I can answer it properly using AI’s help…lol

When corals arrive via transhipment, they’re often already under significant stress. A typical box contains 15-20 pieces, and the water conditions inside are frequently poor — suppliers may use poorly buffered synthetic or local saltwater, and the organic waste produced during transit can cause dramatic pH crashes. While low pH helps suppress ammonia toxicity for fish, it’s particularly harmful to corals and can compromise an entire box of animals.

This is where the LFS experience diverges from the hobbyist experience in a meaningful way. When a store receives a stressed box of 15 corals, they can place everything into a single, well-maintained system — stable parameters, good water chemistry, consistent care. That controlled environment gives the whole batch the best possible chance at recovery.

When those same 15 corals are shipped directly to 15 different hobbyists, however, you’ve introduced 15 variables. Water quality, experience level, and tank maturity will vary widely from one recipient to the next. Some may have ideal setups, but others may not — and that inconsistency across the board pulls the overall survival rate of that batch down considerably.

So the core difference isn’t just about expertise; it’s about standardization. An LFS acts as a single, controlled recovery point, whereas direct-to-hobbyist shipping distributes both the animals and the risk across many unpredictable environments.

What's your criteria when they are considered stable and will be moved to the for sale tanks?

 

[robert4025]

What's your criteria when they are considered stable and will be moved to the for sale tanks?

The criteria for moving animals to the display and sale tanks really depends on the type of animal — SPS corals, LPS corals, and fish each follow a different timeline.

With SPS corals, if they’ve been stable in a well-maintained system for 48 to 72 hours, survival odds jump dramatically — in my experience, up to around 95%. This is why the first 24hr in a super stable and ideal system can be super vital in a critical shipment. LPS corals tend to be hardier and can reach roughly 99% survival confidence within a similar window.

Fish are a different story and require a longer observation period. In my experience, the first 24 hours are the most critical — we typically see losses of around 3 to 5% during that window. This is actually why reputable transhippers generally enforce a 5% DOA absorption policy, meaning they’ll cover losses only if it exceed 5%. Once that 24-hour mark passes, the responsibility shifts to the LFS.

That said, I want to emphasize that these numbers reflect my own shop’s experience. Every LFS will have slightly different benchmarks depending on their systems, their suppliers, and their husbandry practices — so take these figures as a useful reference point rather than a universal standard.

 

[Edgar Sandoval]

If members provide BAR with evidence of LFS that have ich, velvet and all types of pest in the coral frag tanks. will bar recommend member to not buy corals there? IN THE JNTEREST OF RESPONSINLE HUSBANDRY

 

[robert4025]

BTW…I want to apologize if my comment caused any issues. To be clear, I’m only here because your organization reached out to me about continuing my sponsorship, and because my shop’s name was mentioned in this conversation. My involvement with BAR has never been about financial gain — I’m an established shop and will do just fine either way. I have no personal stake in what happens here.

The only reason I still care about this organization is because I believe it’s a valuable community built around a wonderful hobby. But caring about something doesn’t mean I need to be part of the drama surrounding it. If it comes to it, I can simply walk away from my sponsorship and go back to doing business the way I did a few years ago — no headaches, no conflict. I suspect this is one of the reasons AC chose not to return, and I understand that decision completely. I’d hate for things to go that way again, and I suspect most of your members would feel the same.

So please — I’m not your adversary here. There’s no reason to direct any frustration my way. I have a very busy shop to run on a daily basis so taking the time off that to partake in this dead horse conversation is not exactly my cup of tea. I hope we come to some sort of consensus decision soon.

 

[Turkeysammich]

The criteria for moving animals to the display and sale tanks really depends on the type of animal — SPS corals, LPS corals, and fish each follow a different timeline.

With SPS corals, if they’ve been stable in a well-maintained system for 48 to 72 hours, survival odds jump dramatically — in my experience, up to around 95%. This is why the first 24hr in a super stable and ideal system can be super vital in a critical shipment. LPS corals tend to be hardier and can reach roughly 99% survival confidence within a similar window.

Fish are a different story and require a longer observation period. In my experience, the first 24 hours are the most critical — we typically see losses of around 3 to 5% during that window. This is actually why reputable transhippers generally enforce a 5% DOA absorption policy, meaning they’ll cover losses only if it exceed 5%. Once that 24-hour mark passes, the responsibility shifts to the LFS.

That said, I want to emphasize that these numbers reflect my own shop’s experience. Every LFS will have slightly different benchmarks depending on their systems, their suppliers, and their husbandry practices — so take these figures as a useful reference point rather than a universal standard.

This is a good nugget of information

 

[yosemiteclimber]

If members provide BAR with evidence of LFS that have ich, velvet and all types of pest in the coral frag tanks. will bar recommend member to not buy corals there? IN THE JNTEREST OF RESPONSINLE HUSBANDRY

I don’t necessarily know if that’s the board’s place - and we definitely rely on the community to lookout for one another - but if it were a sponsor that would be a different conversation I’d think.

 

[Thales]

Where can I read about what is a sponsor and what is a partner for the club?

 

[Cody Ramirez]

I’m in agreement with this ban. Let the LFS take on the responsibility and the risk. Let them color these pieces up properly, especially with maricultured SPS. It takes a trained eye from someone doing this every day to really see through the over saturated photos what a coral is capable of turning into.

Beyond the stress on the coral itself, you never really know what you’re introducing into your tank. A lot of these farms are disgusting. Let the LFS handle it, they already have the procedures, quarantine systems, and treatments in place to deal with whatever comes in. And all to save what, 50/100 bucks? Not worth it in my opinion.

At the end of the day, it feels like a cheap cash grab that hurts the stores actually trying to do things the right way. Look at what AC does, they have a dedicated intake system in the back with T5s to slowly acclimate pieces for months and bring out the best possible coloration before they ever hit customers’ systems. Look at what Neptune’s does, they also have dedicated intake systems where corals are observed for months.

What I’m getting at is these companies invest huge amounts of time, money, and effort to do things correctly, and that should matter.

 

[RandyC]

I’m in agreement with this ban. Let the LFS take on the responsibility and the risk. Let them color these pieces up properly, especially with maricultured SPS. It takes a trained eye from someone doing this every day to really see through the over saturated photos what a coral is capable of turning into.

Beyond the stress on the coral itself, you never really know what you’re introducing into your tank. A lot of these farms are disgusting. Let the LFS handle it, they already have the procedures, quarantine systems, and treatments in place to deal with whatever comes in. And all to save what, 50/100 bucks? Not worth it in my opinion.

At the end of the day, it feels like a cheap cash grab that hurts the stores actually trying to do things the right way. Look at what AC does, they have a dedicated intake system in the back with T5s to slowly acclimate pieces for months and bring out the best possible coloration before they ever hit customers’ systems. Look at what Neptune’s does, they also have dedicated intake systems where corals are observed for months.

What I’m getting at is these companies invest huge amounts of time, money, and effort to do things correctly, and that should matter.

According to the post above from an LFS, corals will sell after 48-72 hours after being received from transshipping. How much coloring up is going to happen? Not to mention over a period of three days no prophylactic treatment can be used to get rid of pests and eggs (e.g. polyclad flatworms, aefw, red bugs, white bugs, etc.). So, what's banning bags sales going to do to decrease pests or increase the health of coral being in a BAR members hands sooner?

Also, this kind of risk should really be decided by the hobbyists and what they deem acceptable to them. Some may want to take on this perceived risk. Some may believe that 2-3 days in an LFS tank decreases their risk. Some may not even want fish or coral unless it's been fully quarantined first. What anyone chooses along this line is entirely fine. There is nothing wrong with any of those decisions. This ban of bag sales will not increase the survivability of livestock or decrease the proliferation of pests. If someone has bad husbandry, it doesn't really matter when they get the livestock. Honestly, BAR should be focusing on this instead (educating and improving bad husbandry).

 

[Cody Ramirez]

I’m not saying a 48/72 hour hold magically eliminates pests or fully quarantines a coral. That’s obviously not realistic. But to the LFS’s point, even 48/72 hours substantially increases the chances of survival because the LFS is taking on the risk during the most dangerous period. Bag sales just pass that responsibility directly onto the next guy.

My point is more about accountability, handling, and the overall process versus fresh transshipped pieces immediately changing hands and going straight into hobbyist systems. A good LFS at least has intake protocols, observation systems, acclimation procedures, and a reputation to protect. That’s still a much better layer of responsibility than direct bag flipping for quick profit.

And when I mentioned holding corals for months, I was referring more specifically to the SPS side of the hobby. Some of these higher-end shops genuinely do invest months into stabilizing, coloring up, and properly acclimating maricultured pieces before selling them. That level of time, infrastructure, and care is what I think deserves support.

Sorry, I’m a huge stick head so my mind always goes there lol.

 

[RandyC]

I’m not saying a 48/72 hour hold magically eliminates pests or fully quarantines a coral. That’s obviously not realistic. But to the LFS’s point, even 48/72 hours substantially increases the chances of survival because the LFS is taking on the risk during the most dangerous period. Bag sales just pass that responsibility directly onto the next guy.

My point is more about accountability, handling, and the overall process versus fresh transshipped pieces immediately changing hands and going straight into hobbyist systems. A good LFS at least has intake protocols, observation systems, acclimation procedures, and a reputation to protect. That’s still a much better layer of responsibility than direct bag flipping for quick profit.

It's very clearly stated above, that the LFS doesn't really do much different than a hobbyist when importing the livestock, but they have ability to provide an economy of scale and is able to import and have many pieces of coral and numerous fish at once. I couldn't import boxes and boxes of coral or fish in and have a single large system to handle them. This is a definitely an important service that an LFS provides for the general public of a wide range of experience. But really, how much coral or fish is really being imported by BAR members during a bag sales (domestic or international)? How many average and experienced BAR member don't have access to a super stable system to handle the few pieces that are imported that they purchased?

In my opinion, in the hands of an BAR member during these bag sales, it's one less tank move of stress to handle in a short period of time. One less system to have potentially to be introduced to pests. But again, I'll say "If someone has bad husbandry, it doesn't really matter when they get the livestock."

If a BAR member understands what they're getting, understand where they're from, why should BAR be policing this form of sales? Nothing nefarious is going on. And again, I'd argue that for the average BAR member of these limited number of pieces "it's in equal or better hands of a BAR member" because we're hyper focused on a few pieces that we bought versus having to worry about boxes and boxes of livestock. This sale might not be for everyone and those don't have to participate in it, but saying that bag sales are unethical or is a bad sales practice for BAR members and we should ban the activity, I just haven't seen the logic.

And when I mentioned holding corals for months, I was referring more specifically to the SPS side of the hobby. Some of these higher-end shops genuinely do invest months into stabilizing, coloring up, and properly acclimating maricultured pieces before selling them. That level of time, infrastructure, and care is what I think deserves support.

Sorry, I’m a huge stick head so my mind always goes there lol.

This is nothing at all similar to what this ban is about. You're paying extra money, for named pieces from well known vendors (e.g. Battle Corals, Reef Raft, TSA, etc.) that have gone through QT and are most likely aquacultured pieces or maricultured pieces that will become aquacultured pieces. This is much akin to High Tide Aquatics doing fish QT, but at an extra cost.


This isn't directed at you @Cody Ramirez, but to the larger group as a whole. I think I've bludgeoned this topic over many times. I'll stop here as I feel I've made my point and seem to be repeating myself.

 

[Alexander1312]

Oddly, I tend to agree with the majority of pushing back, but only due to logic, not to support the practice.

In Europe, the reputable shops would never sell corals that quickly. It typically takes at least several weeks before their corals are being released to the public, specifically SPS.

This should increase the survivability of corals even in less than perfect husbandry conditions, but most importantly, minimize the spread of disease, pests etc.

The reason this is probably not feasible here (in our state) is because of the economic viability of keeping a large amount of coral in stock without the ability to sell them, given sky high business expenses.

 

[Thales]

Oddly, I tend to agree with the majority of pushing back, but only due to logic, not to support the practice.

In Europe, the reputable shops would never sell corals that quickly. It typically takes at least several weeks before their corals are being released to the public, specifically SPS.

This should increase the survivability of corals even in less than perfect husbandry conditions, but most importantly, minimize the spread of disease, pests etc.

The reason this is probably not feasible here (in our state) is because of the economic viability of keeping a large amount of coral in stock without the ability to sell them, given sky high business expenses.

The beef is doing a European tour right now. It is way more expensive here than in the states. Electricity here makes ours look cheap. Even with that, every place we have gone to puts the animals health first, with some shops doing qt even after the massive qt importers do. It’s about attitude, not cost. Reputation is key here, and if that gets hurt, the seller is in trouble.

 

[Alexander1312]

The beef is doing a European tour right now. It is way more expensive here than in the states. Electricity here makes ours look cheap. Even with that, every place we have gone to puts the animals health first, with some shops doing qt even after the massive qt importers do. It’s about attitude, not cost. Reputation is key here, and if that gets hurt, the seller is in trouble.

100% on electricity (and the general sentiment), which is why e.g. Tunze obsess about lowering the power requirements for their equipment as much as possible, which I do not believe is as much appreciated here. However, monthly leases should still be significantly lower than in the CA, depending on where you are. Not sure if you are going to France, but there is the super impressive shop, Rectif reef (I believe), which sets a benchmark in both coral and fish health.