R2R targeted discrimination

[Thales]

Hmm. I don’t find anything about their position that I disagree with. I hope that those that signed the petition also read what R2R had to say in response.

Nothing is prohibiting people of the LGBTQ+ community from taking part in any part of the forum. R2R is simply saying that they don’t want to have threads started that are about topics that would discuss those topics. The forum is a reefing forum; there is nothing about reefing that has anything to do with LGBTQ+. R2R (and BAR) has the same policy about politics and religion.

Where does it state anything that is bigoted, hateful, or even anti-LGBTQ+?

It doesn't - but since it is Dave's statement, it is understandable that it doesn't as he is trying to give the impression that nothing unjust happened. They allow all kinds of off topic discussions - cats, hunting, prayers, go carts, etc - yet a LGBTQ thread is not allowed. The problem is that Dave wants to think his forum as accepting and fair to everyone, but it isn't, and it is not consistent. He picks and chooses what he wants and what he doesn't want, and that changes as the wind blows....but the public face he presents hides all that. There is a women in reefkeeping thread that is driectly analgous to the LGBTQ, but somehow one is ok, but the other isn't. If you look at the whole picture, which is hard because Dave keeps deleting content he doesn't like, you see that he his trying to have his cake and eating it too. If off topic discussion aren't allowed, that's fine, but it kinda has to apply to all off topic topics, not just the ones his church doesn't agree with.
He did the same last year with an 'ask an atheist' thread in the Lounge - except then he said the he wouldn't allow it because it goes against his reason for being on this earth 'to spread the word of god through his forum', and in the next paragraph insists that R2R is not a religious forum.
There would be little said against dave and his forum if he was honest about his motivations and desires, rather than pretending to be for everyone.

 

[JVU]

Hmm. I don’t find anything about their position that I disagree with. I hope that those that signed the petition also read what R2R had to say in response.

Nothing is prohibiting people of the LGBTQ+ community from taking part in any part of the forum. R2R is simply saying that they don’t want to have threads started that are about topics that would discuss those topics. The forum is a reefing forum; there is nothing about reefing that has anything to do with LGBTQ+. R2R (and BAR) has the same policy about politics and religion.

Where does it state anything that is bigoted, hateful, or even anti-LGBTQ+?

That statement page is directly linked to from the petition page linked in the first post. So everyone who signs the petition has access to read it.

What is stated in that page by the R2R owner sounds very reasonable like how PR spin from companies under fire always sounds reasonable. People with more direct knowledge than I have say that there is more to it than admitted to in that statement.

 

[Thales]

But they said directly the opposite. You can identify your gender and sexual orientation. You just can’t start a thread that is specifically about that.

“I do want to clarify that this is not meant to say that someone may not identify their gender identity or sexual orientation. So for example, members are certainly welcome to mention their significant others or talk about family events, relationship to spouses as it relates to the hobby (i.e. "my wife doesn't like how much I spend on coral"), etc. We're simply asking that we not have entire threads/discussions dedicated to this type of topic.”

There is a 'women in reefing' thread. Interestingly, he took it down initially when he took down the LGBTQ thread, but put it back when women went ballistic. He wants his cake and to eat it too. If a women in reefkeeping thread is acceptable, then so is an LGBTQ thread

 

[ofzakaria]

There is a 'women in reefing' thread. Interestingly, he took it down initially when he took down the LGBTQ thread, but put it back when women went ballistic. He wants his cake and to eat it too. If a women in reefkeeping thread is acceptable, then so is an LGBTQ thread

Exactly the point and easiest way to identify discrimination.

 

[Thales]

Ben and I are playing with a new podcast. We rushed out the pilot because we talked a lot about the discrimination on r2r. Check it out if foul mouth reef talking is you jam

 

[Thales]

Have you seen this?

Change.org petition to support LGBTQ+ reefers

Reefs.com Discussion - Another forum is actively discriminating against LGBTQ+ reefers, and non believers. I think our community is too small and awesome for this kind of stuff. Please help put pressure on the people responsible by signing and sharing the petition. Some of their staff have...

www.manhattanreefs.com

I saw how it started on R2R, it was so wrong.
This hobby is anything but inclusive. N9 one should loose access to this hobby just because they are different..
Bob (Humble fish) got banned from the forum because he spoke against it.
Silver lining is people like Rich and Bob, they did amazing job standing up and speaking up..

Thanks for sharing this here!

 

[ofzakaria]

Thanks for sharing this here!

Thank you for your courage!

 

[Thales]

Thank you for your courage!

You know, when he did this to the atheist thread, I kinda just sucked it up, and after a few months started posting again. This is way way worse imo, and I just can't sit by while discrimination is happening in the hobby I love - even if I am the one not being discriminated against this time. It is just so not cool, and so easy not to do!

 

[ofzakaria]

You know, when he did this to the atheist thread, I kinda just sucked it up, and after a few months started posting again. This is way way worse imo, and I just can't sit by while discrimination is happening in the hobby I love - even if I am the one not being discriminated against this time. It is just so not cool, and so easy not to do!

I witnessed the original thread and how it all unfolded. What they did to thst group was horrible. They singled them out then made sure all the forum know them and made them feel rejected..I really felt so bad..
Leave it to a guy like David to say he love everyone and love you only to then totally disfranchise you..

 

[Flagg37]

It doesn't - but since it is Dave's statement, it is understandable that it doesn't as he is trying to give the impression that nothing unjust happened. They allow all kinds of off topic discussions - cats, hunting, prayers, go carts, etc - yet a LGBTQ thread is not allowed. The problem is that Dave wants to think his forum as accepting and fair to everyone, but it isn't, and it is not consistent. He picks and chooses what he wants and what he doesn't want, and that changes as the wind blows....but the public face he presents hides all that. There is a women in reefkeeping thread that is driectly analgous to the LGBTQ, but somehow one is ok, but the other isn't. If you look at the whole picture, which is hard because Dave keeps deleting content he doesn't like, you see that he his trying to have his cake and eating it too. If off topic discussion aren't allowed, that's fine, but it kinda has to apply to all off topic topics, not just the ones his church doesn't agree with.
He did the same last year with an 'ask an atheist' thread in the Lounge - except then he said the he wouldn't allow it because it goes against his reason for being on this earth 'to spread the word of god through his forum', and in the next paragraph insists that R2R is not a religious forum.
There would be little said against dave and his forum if he was honest about his motivations and desires, rather than pretending to be for everyone.

I totally agree with you that there should be consistency in regards to what is allowed and what isn’t. I didn’t think the prayer section of the site should be on there since it didn’t have anything to do with reefing. I come to reefing forums to discuss reefing. Anything that detracts from that I find unnecessary and distracting; whether it is cats, hunting, or anything else. That is strictly my opinion, but it may not be Dave’s. If the site truly belongs to him and him alone (I don’t know what the structure of R2R is) then he has every right to be able to do or say anything he wants with his site. If people don’t like it they have every right not to participate and engage in his site. Along those lines, a person also has every right to start a petition to get things changed on the site, but just think about how you would react if someone started a petition to change something about a website that belonged to you (I don’t know if you have a website, it’s just a hypothetical). It may change your mind or it may not. The point is, is that it’s ultimately up to you (or him in this case).

 

[Flagg37]

I witnessed the original thread and how it all unfolded. What they did to thst group was horrible. They singled them out then made sure all the forum know them and made them feel rejected..I really felt so bad..
Leave it to a guy like David to say he love everyone and love you only to then totally disfranchise you..

I didn’t see the thread but it sounds like Dave made an appropriate and correct action by removing the thread. If a minority group is being attacked, isn’t it protective for him to have stepped in to stop it? Was Dave the one involved in any personal attacks or was it other members, or staff (I’m not trying to make a point with this question, I’m curious who the offenders were)?

 

[Thales]

I totally agree with you that there should be consistency in regards to what is allowed and what isn’t. I didn’t think the prayer section of the site should be on there since it didn’t have anything to do with reefing. I come to reefing forums to discuss reefing. Anything that detracts from that I find unnecessary and distracting; whether it is cats, hunting, or anything else. That is strictly my opinion, but it may not be Dave’s. If the site truly belongs to him and him alone (I don’t know what the structure of R2R is) then he has every right to be able to do or say anything he wants with his site. If people don’t like it they have every right not to participate and engage in his site. Along those lines, a person also has every right to start a petition to get things changed on the site, but just think about how you would react if someone started a petition to change something about a website that belonged to you (I don’t know if you have a website, it’s just a hypothetical). It may change your mind or it may not. The point is, is that it’s ultimately up to you (or him in this case).

100%. If I was discriminating but saying I wasn't, I would hope people would call me out on it.

 

[Thales]

I didn’t see the thread but it sounds like Dave made an appropriate and correct action by removing the thread. If a minority group is being attacked, isn’t it protective for him to have stepped in to stop it? Was Dave the one involved in any personal attacks or was it other members, or staff (I’m not trying to make a point with this question, I’m curious who the offenders were)?

I think that is backwards. You don't punish the minority group for being attacked, you stop the attackers. They didn't really stop the attackers, they rewarded them - and changed the TOS to punish the minority group more.

 

[JVU]

In my opinion there is a good chance that the R2R owner truly doesn’t realize if/when he is being discriminatory. It can be hard to tell sometimes, and our cultural perspectives of what is ok change too. My ways of looking at these issues has changed over my lifetime in response to listening to others. I’ve known good honest people who truly just don’t get that what they are doing is not ok with another group, because they just haven’t seen it from the other perspective. Approximately zero people are intentionally bigoted or discriminatory. In cases where both parties are open-minded and honestly interested in fairness, then a conversation/petition like this can actually do a lot of good.

 

[Thales]

In my opinion there is a good chance that the R2R owner truly doesn’t realize if/when he is being discriminatory. It can be hard to tell sometimes, and our cultural perspectives of what is ok change too. My ways of looking at these issues has changed over my lifetime in response to listening to others. I’ve known good honest people who truly just don’t get that what they are doing is not ok with another group, because they just haven’t seen it from the other perspective. Approximately zero people are intentionally bigoted or discriminatory. In cases where both parties are open-minded and honestly interested in fairness, then a conversation/petition like this can actually do a lot of good.

It is part of his church teachings, and LGBTQ staff at R2r have explained it to him a lot - some of them are giving up and leaving because it doesn't get through.

 

[ofzakaria]

I think that is backwards. You don't punish the minority group for being attacked, you stop the attackers. They didn't really stop the attackers, they rewarded them - and changed the TOS to punish the minority group more.

Exactly. On the Manhattanreefs thread there is a reefer who shared that exact thing where the attackers were embpowerd and followed them to FB.
Also you are not seeing the original thread because David deleted it to hid the history. Seeing a whole community outcry should be enough to side by the victim not the absuer..

 

[ofzakaria]

In my opinion there is a good chance that the R2R owner truly doesn’t realize if/when he is being discriminatory. It can be hard to tell sometimes, and our cultural perspectives of what is ok change too. My ways of looking at these issues has changed over my lifetime in response to listening to others. I’ve known good honest people who truly just don’t get that what they are doing is not ok with another group, because they just haven’t seen it from the other perspective. Approximately zero people are intentionally bigoted or discriminatory. In cases where both parties are open-minded and honestly interested in fairness, then a conversation/petition like this can actually do a lot of good.

This guy doesn't want to learn. Ppl tried to explain, he keep deleting posts so not only he will not lewrn, but also so others do jot learn and only see his bigoted point of view.

 

[Flagg37]

I think that is backwards. You don't punish the minority group for being attacked, you stop the attackers. They didn't really stop the attackers, they rewarded them - and changed the TOS to punish the minority group more.

I think we’re in agreement again. If I were to happen upon someone being attacked by a group of people, then it may be the best thing for me to do is to stop the attack. The analogy isn’t perfect since I would not have the power to punish the attackers where Dave has the power and authority to punish them, but I don’t know if he may have. Is there a way to tell if the aggressors were banned in addition to the thread being deleted?

Notice also that the thread was deleted and not simply locked. If he was to lock it then the abuse would be available for everyone to look at. There may be an argument for transparency in this regard or again, it could be looked at as a way of protecting the victim(s).

 

[Thales]

I think we’re in agreement again. If I were to happen upon someone being attacked by a group of people, then it may be the best thing for me to do is to stop the attack. The analogy isn’t perfect since I would not have the power to punish the attackers where Dave has the power and authority to punish them, but I don’t know if he may have. Is there a way to tell if the aggressors were banned in addition to the thread being deleted?

They were not. Neither were the trouble makers in the ask the atheist thread last year

Notice also that the thread was deleted and not simply locked. If he was to lock it then the abuse would be available for everyone to look at. There may be an argument for transparency in this regard or again, it could be looked at as a way of protecting the victim(s).

The victims don't want their protection to be 'don't post like that again'. Its like blaming women for getting raped.
They are working very hard to delete rainbow posts on their site, but they didn't work hard at all deleting posts attacking other members. They are totally siding with the bullies over the victims.

 

[sfsuphysics]

So yeah... if anything this thread taught me that California has anti-discrimination laws, but at the federal level there isn't for LGBTQ+ ... yikes.