What is your heater setup? I think mine is inefficient.

[Meshmez]

For those using Apex as their sole temp controller, please be aware that it is not a recommended use. I don't believe the relays are intended to be used as frequently as they are with a heater. Apex should be used as a backup to shut down power if the primary thermostat goes out. The primary thermostat being an inkbird, ranco, internal to heater, etc.

Edit: I guess this info is incorrect, please disregard

 

[JVU]

The issue with 2 undersized heaters is you don't have redundancy and you can't really effetely lead/lag them (that is mechanical speak to tun them on/off in succession). Mentioned lead/lag above but didn't didn't go into detail. Its like controlling an RC car with only a on/off control for turning left/right vs a variable control, or docking a boat using the on/off of the engine vs throttle.

The failure mode if you need both heaters to get you to temp, when one drops out (and it is actually cold) your heating power is now 1/2 and the water temp will fall to an unknown lower point based off the temp of your home, size tank, etc. You will need to address that quickly meaning your vacation is cut short, etc. OP has 3 heaters, so assuming they are all sized at 50%, he is good. Using equipment OP has, If you have 2 full size heaters with different set points and the primary heater fails, you can be notified if you are running say 1 or 2 degree under normal vs way under normal. That gives you plenty of time to fix a heater with no damage and you can chill in Hawaii for a few more days. PS, I Design and Build Commercial Buildings with heavy mechanical systems for data centers, life support systems, labs, large assembly areas like Entertainment Venues so If I use jargon that isn't clear, let me know. Also take my suggestions as Best Practices which does not always mean practical or in budget in a home fish tank. Everyones risk tolerance is different.

I see your often stated point that 2 smaller heaters will "save" the tank if a heater sticks on. It won't if the heater sticks on in the summer so that can be a false sense of security in a way. Having 2 systems to shut down a heater is really what you need in that instance which means you can safely use full size heaters, or three 50% heaters, etc. You have an Apex to take care of that so You are good, but proposing the alternate argument for those without a secondary back-up and just using a cheap heater + temp controller. Once you get an Apex or similar you have a lot more options such as power monitoring, etc.

Notification of a failure is actually the most critical, because if you don't know the system failed, you will just be operating on a back-up as normal until the secondary fails. That is the best reason to lead/lag your heaters if you don't have something like an APEX with power monitoring. This can tell you a heater has failed and give you the opportunity to fix it before the fish tell you it failed.

Yes agree and I’ve discussed similar more nuanced points on BAR many times over the years. I just get tired of writing it all out every time the topic comes up again. There are certain topics that just come up a lot. My system is way more complicated than I let on above, more like what you describe. I discussed it in some detail a couple years ago in case anyone finds it useful:

https://www.bareefers.org/forum/threads/jvu’s-rsr750.24825/page-2#post-362518

 

[Qwiv]

Yes agree and I’ve discussed similar more nuanced points on BAR many times over the years. I just get tired of writing it all out every time the topic comes up again. There are certain topics that just come up a lot. My system is way more complicated than I let on above, more like what you describe. I discussed it in some detail a couple years ago in case anyone finds it useful:

https://www.bareefers.org/forum/threads/jvu’s-rsr750.24825/page-2#post-362518

I know. Seen your photo of that fancy pants Tesla powered tank Was why I was tailoring the suggestion to the OP and his particular equipment. Way to many ways to skin a cat and way to many cats to skin.

 

[Kensington Reefer]

I know. Seen your photo of that fancy pants Tesla powered tank Was why I was tailoring the suggestion to the OP and his particular equipment. Way to many ways to skin a cat and way to many cats to skin.

Why are you skinning a cat?
What a horrible image!
Banjo?
Did you eat it!
I get the metaphor, but that one....eww

Sorry for the detour
Best fishes
Go W’s

 

[Vhuang168]

For those using Apex as their sole temp controller, please be aware that it is not a recommended use. I don't believe the relays are intended to be used as frequently as they are with a heater. Apex should be used as a backup to shut down power if the primary thermostat goes out. The primary thermostat being an inkbird, ranco, internal to heater, etc.

Would love to see where it says it is not a recommended use. I've been using an EB832 to control heaters since 2016.

 

[Vhuang168]

I highly recommend the Innovative Marine heaters and heater control. They have controllers that you can plug regular heaters into now.

Below is the temp graph. No, I am not using the EB832 in this instance because the accuracy of the controller is excellent!

 

[Qwiv]

Would love to see where it says it is not a recommended use. I've been using an EB832 to control heaters since 2016.

Controllers fail typically when the relays die. Relays are rated for a certain number of Duty Cycles before failure. Your heater relay is the hardest working relay in the system turning on/off multiple times a day and of a higher load than most other equipment, so the first relay likely to burn out is the one controlling the heater. That could be in a $60 controller, the heater itself, or the Apex. What relay you want to work is your call and why I advocate for using the heater's thermostat as the primary controller. The heaters have a useful life and can fail for controller and element issues. Where you replace a heater, you get a new controller for free.

There are a lot of EnergyBar8/4 out there with some blown relays. 2 Might live in my garage.

 

[Meshmez]

Would love to see where it says it is not a recommended use. I've been using an EB832 to control heaters since 2016.

You're using the eb832 as the main temp control? I could have sworn I have seen/heard from multiple sources that you should use it as a backup, but not the main, because the relays aren't meant to be cycled that much. I of course can't find those now, so I guess I stand corrected.

 

[phatduckk]

You're using the eb832 as the main temp control? I could have sworn I have seen/heard from multiple sources that you should use it as a backup, but not the main, because the relays aren't meant to be cycled that much. I of course can't find those now, so I guess I stand corrected.

+1

I’ve heard the same thing for the same reason: you don’t want the relays to flip/flop “that much”.

Pretty sure it was in a BRS or Neptune live stream.

My tanks have all run heater -> InkBird -> apex. If you want an InkBird I have a couple extra & you can have one

 

[Vhuang168]

Controllers fail typically when the relays die. Relays are rated for a certain number of Duty Cycles before failure. Your heater relay is the hardest working relay in the system turning on/off multiple times a day and of a higher load than most other equipment, so the first relay likely to burn out is the one controlling the heater. That could be in a $60 controller, the heater itself, or the Apex. What relay you want to work is your call and why I advocate for using the heater's thermostat as the primary controller. The heaters have a useful life and can fail for controller and element issues. Where you replace a heater, you get a new controller for free.

There are a lot of EnergyBar8/4 out there with some blown relays. 2 Might live in my garage.

+1

I’ve heard the same thing for the same reason: you don’t want the relays to flip/flop “that much”.

Pretty sure it was in a BRS or Neptune live stream.

My tanks have all run heater -> InkBird -> apex. If you want an InkBird I have a couple extra & you can have one

That has never been a Neptune Systems recommendation.
It maybe someone's but it is not ours'.

If it is something you choose to do, by all means, it is your choice. Here is why language comes into play. If this is YOUR recommendation, please say so. The way it is worded makes it sound like an official recommendation from Neptune. Can you run it that way? Sure. MUST you run it that way, no. Did we acknowledge that BRS recommended it? yes.

I have heaters and EB832s going on almost 8 years now. Have I had heaters fail? Yes. EB832s? No, and I have ALOT of them! Much much more than most users.

If you were using any outlet other than 4 or 8 on the older EB8/4s, I can see them failing since they are not mechanical relays. Heck I still have an EB8 running a 300w ehiem on a tank. That setup is almost 10 years old.

 

[Qwiv]

That has never been a Neptune Systems recommendation.
It maybe someone's but it is not ours'.

If it is something you choose to do, by all means, it is your choice. Here is why language comes into play. If this is YOUR recommendation, please say so. The way it is worded makes it sound like an official recommendation from Neptune. Can you run it that way? Sure. MUST you run it that way, no. Did we acknowledge that BRS recommended it? yes.

I have heaters and EB832s going on almost 8 years now. Have I had heaters fail? Yes. EB832s? No, and I have ALOT of them! Much much more than most users.

If you were using any outlet other than 4 or 8 on the older EB8/4s, I can see them failing since they are not mechanical relays. Heck I still have an EB8 running a 300w ehiem on a tank. That setup is almost 10 years old.

My statement was 100% clear that was MY recommendation and said you could do what you wanted. I presented the reasoning for my recommendation for whom ever to do as the please.

If you have some reasoning as to why my recommendation is bad, happy to hear it

 

[H2OPlayar]

My statement was 100% clear that was MY recommendation and said you could do what you wanted. I presented the reasoning for my recommendation for whom ever to do as the please.

If you have some reasoning as to why my recommendation is bad, happy to hear it

I wouldn't trust the relay/thermostat in a heater as it is the cheapest piece of equipment in the loop. The relays on the apex/powerbar EB832 and inkbird are signifigantly more robust than the thermostat in the eheim or any other heater. I have had heaters fail on me in multiple ways, but like Vince above, have never had an issue with either the inkbird or the apex/powerbar EB832.

This is why I run titanium heaters with no thermostat, controlled by an inkbird. I would trust the apex to do it too as it has logic and solid hardware.

 

[Meshmez]

That has never been a Neptune Systems recommendation.
It maybe someone's but it is not ours'.

If it is something you choose to do, by all means, it is your choice. Here is why language comes into play. If this is YOUR recommendation, please say so. The way it is worded makes it sound like an official recommendation from Neptune. Can you run it that way? Sure. MUST you run it that way, no. Did we acknowledge that BRS recommended it? yes.

I have heaters and EB832s going on almost 8 years now. Have I had heaters fail? Yes. EB832s? No, and I have ALOT of them! Much much more than most users.

If you were using any outlet other than 4 or 8 on the older EB8/4s, I can see them failing since they are not mechanical relays. Heck I still have an EB8 running a 300w ehiem on a tank. That setup is almost 10 years old.

So it was acknowledged that brs recommended it. So that must be how I had seen it mentioned by both brs and Neptune representatives. I didn't originally want to mention where I thought I heard it, but since it's out there now...

I edited my post to say it's incorrect and to disregard. Would have been nice if you addressed the confusion in a less aggressive way, especially since you acknowledge knowing that recommendation from brs is out there. But hey, to each their own.

My opinion is to use a temp controller backed up by a second controller. I personally use titanium heaters on a ranco, backed up by apex. I believe this leaves less room for human error, and the relay being worked is in the temp controller, not the EB832 that is running all my other stuff as well.

 

[Qwiv]

I wouldn't trust the relay/thermostat in a heater as it is the cheapest piece of equipment in the loop. The relays on the apex/powerbar EB832 and inkbird are signifigantly more robust than the thermostat in the eheim or any other heater. I have had heaters fail on me in multiple ways, but like Vince above, have never had an issue with either the inkbird or the apex/powerbar EB832.

This is why I run titanium heaters with no thermostat, controlled by an inkbird. I would trust the apex to do it too as it has logic and solid hardware.

Wasn’t discussing your tank. OP asked about his/her tank not anyone else’s with their equipment. Also used the term Efficient which I specifically asked what they meant.

I stand my my recommendation for how to use the OPs existing equipment in the most efficient manner.

Everyone moved the goal post on the discussion by talking about their tanks and an Apex. Yes, upgrading to 2 more accurate controllers and monitors is better, but was that even the question?

 

[H2OPlayar]

OP asked about his/her tank not anyone else’s with their equipment.

Reread the 3rd line of the OP.

To heat my 180, I have three heaters, one in the sump and two in the main tank. I'm starting to think it's highly inefficient and maybe just one in the main tank should suffice.
I'm not using a smart controller, but I have been planning to do so and have the parts for a PID.
How are you guys controlling your aquarium temperature?

V

Looks like polling the room for opinions about their tank.

No one was criticizing your setup, but there is consistent data out there that the hardware controlling the heater that is inside the heater is not nearly as robust as the hardware on a dedicated temperature control unit. The below video is likely worth a watch.

Top Heater Mistakes In A Saltwater Aquarium

Learn how to avoid running into the most common aquarium disaster - heater failure!

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Qwiv]

Reread the 3rd line of the OP.

Looks like polling the room for opinions about their tank.

No one was criticizing your setup, but there is consistent data out there that the hardware controlling the heater that is inside the heater is not nearly as robust as the hardware on a dedicated temperature control unit. The below video is likely worth a watch.

Top Heater Mistakes In A Saltwater Aquarium

Learn how to avoid running into the most common aquarium disaster - heater failure!

www.bulkreefsupply.com

OP second post:
"I have a "single stage" Ranco Controller,"

My first post:
"Here is what I would do with your heaters personally with the equipment you have:"

I then asked about what the OPs actual issue is to provide more precise guidance.

I have 4 temp backups on my systems that works nothing like I have discussed. I never said my recommendation is the best way, it is the best way with that equipment. I clearly defined my response and reasoning.

 

[Klatzy]

If one were to use a Ranco controller I'm assuming you'd need to connect to basic heating element (and not a standard aquarium heater which has it's own thermostat/controller)? Or does it matter?

 

[RandyC]

If one were to use a Ranco controller I'm assuming you'd need to connect basic heating element (and not a standard aquarium heater which has it's own thermostat/controller)? Or does it matter?

Either would work, but if you only use a heating element without an internal thermostat then there is no redundancy in your heating setup.

If you use a heater with a thermostat in it, then you would use the ranco as a fail-safe to protect conditions where the heater gets stuck on or another failure that is causing the temperature to go above the limit set on the Ranco.

 

[Meshmez]

If one were to use a Ranco controller I'm assuming you'd need to connect basic heating element (and not a standard aquarium heater which has it's own thermostat/controller)? Or does it matter?

Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, the safest is to have at least 2 controls on your heaters. If you plug a titanium heater with no thermostat into a ranco, I would also have it controlled by an apex (or inkbird, or anything else to double check). If it has an internal thermostat, the ranco could be the second control.

 

[JVU]

For my display, I have my Apex as the primary controller for both heaters and the 2 inkbirds as the backup controllers (between the apex and the heaters). Because I have my 2 heaters on/off points staggered, heater1 is on most of the time and heater2 doesn’t turn on very often.

So I get the best of both worlds in my opinion- I get to use the power monitoring feature of the Apex to let me know if a heater fails (key), without having to have them switch on/off frequently.

Without the power monitoring feature (requires Apex to be the the primary) it would be hard to know right away that a heater has failed if you have redundancy.

I think BRS’s recommendation and logic is wrong in this case. BRS makes a fair number of sketchy recommendations and occasionally frank mistakes in their videos. They say opinion/preference like it’s a fact, and it has gotten worse as they have gained celebrity status. It worries me when I see people reference their opinions as if they are the final word. I appreciate their videos, especially the Investigates series, but I think of them more as influencers than scientists or experts.