Transcript -
(21:05:43) ChatBot: (cwolfus) logs into the Chat.
(21:05:51) (cwolfus): Hi gang
(21:05:56) (cwolfus): Sorry I'm late
(21:05:57) (gomer): howdy :-D
(21:06:01) (Euphyllia): Hai!
(21:06:17) (cwolfus): Matthew! You're up late.
(21:06:19) (gomer): It's ok. I had Robot Chicken entertaining me
(21:06:25) (Euphyllia): Meh...
(21:06:25) (cwolfus): Nice
(21:06:40) (Euphyllia): I normally stay up to 11:00 so I'm good
(21:06:40) (cwolfus): So should we give it a few more minutes?
(21:06:47) (Euphyllia): Yup
(21:06:51) (cwolfus): Wow! That's late
(21:06:57) (Euphyllia): Give it till' 9:10 so other can get here...
(21:07:09) (Euphyllia): They may be a few minutes late.
(21:07:18) (cwolfus): Agreed. I'm gonna go bump the post
(21:07:22) (cwolfus): BRB
(21:07:27) (Euphyllia): k
(21:08:27) (cwolfus): Back
(21:09:20) ChatBot: (Mike_
) logs into the Chat.
(21:09:27) (cwolfus): Welome!
(21:09:47) (Mike_
): Hello Charles
(21:09:50) (gomer): was told we couldn't start till you showed up Mike
(21:10:13) (Mike_
): Hey I kicked my kids out early just for you
(21:10:26) (cwolfus): I tried to do the same!
(21:10:29) ChatBot: (ian) logs into the Chat.
(21:10:31) (Euphyllia): I've heard that even though the new improved LEDs put off
more power than a MH, the light gets weaker through water and is very low at the
bottom. I heard that MH is better for lighting if the tank is deep. I like the no
heat from the LEDs but they seem they would make the tank all blue-looking. This is
a big deal for me since I'm deciding whether to get a NC 150w MH-HQI or the new NC
150w LEDs...
(21:10:34) (cwolfus): Hey Ian
(21:10:35) (ian): whats going on in here
(21:10:49) (cwolfus): Hold your horses Matthew
(21:10:54) (Euphyllia): Ooops sorry for typing so much in a small little messgae...
:O
(21:11:12) (cwolfus): We're going to do this one a little differently
(21:11:13) (Euphyllia): I'll just wait on the question until the question part...
(21:11:24) (cwolfus): Nice!
(21:11:51) (cwolfus): In the past,some of these have gotten a little out-of-hand...
(21:12:05) (ian): Tony?
(21:12:11) (cwolfus): with an onslaught of questions and comments that took the chat
too far off topic.
(21:12:12) (gomer): I'm here Ian
(21:12:16) (cwolfus): (no Rich)
(21:12:17) (camlov2): can I ask what everyone is using for lights right now?
(21:12:24) (cwolfus): Not yet
(21:12:34) (cwolfus): So here is how this will work...
(21:13:03) (cwolfus): On the right side, under each online user's name are some
options...
(21:13:14) (cwolfus): One is "Send private message"
(21:13:28) (Mike_
): bah we don't need Rich, he's got his high tech plasma bulbs to
play with
(21:13:30) ChatBot: (bee505) logs into the Chat.
(21:13:39) (cwolfus): Instead of posting your messages to all, use this to qietly
send them to me
(21:13:53) (Euphyllia): OK
(21:13:57) (cwolfus): I will then manage the queue and post them for all to see and
Tony to answer
(21:13:58) ChatBot: (bee505) logs out of the Chat.
(21:14:13) (cwolfus): That was fast
(21:14:22) (newhobby): lol
(21:14:25) (Euphyllia): (whispers) I've heard that even though the new improved LEDs
put off more power than a MH, the light gets weaker through water and is very low at
the bottom. I heard that MH is better for lighting if the tank is deep. I like the
no heat from the LEDs but they seem they would make the tank all blue-looking. This
is a big deal for me since I'm deciding whether to get a NC 150w MH-HQI or the new
NC 150w LEDs... did that work as a PM?
(21:14:27) (cwolfus): We'll try this for a bit and see how it goes.
(21:14:46) (cwolfus): If we don't like it, we can make changes on the fly.
(21:14:46) (newhobby): guess he didn't want to pm u
(21:14:56) (Mike_
): ok I'm going to go newbish here, but how do you send a private
message?
(21:15:00) (cwolfus): Is it my screenname?
(21:15:03) (cwolfus): ;-)
(21:15:14) ChatBot: (Crabby) logs into the Chat.
(21:15:20) (cwolfus): NP, on the right click on my name
(21:15:24) (cwolfus): Hi Jon
(21:15:24) (Mike_
): ok n/m
(21:15:31) (Euphyllia): Click the screen name you wanna send it to then click
Private Message and send it... I think it worked
(21:15:31) (Crabby): HI
(21:15:33) (cwolfus): Jon, new rules
(21:15:46) (Crabby): Yes...
(21:15:52) (cwolfus): use send private message on the right panel to send me your
questions
(21:16:01) (cwolfus): I'll post them publicly
(21:16:06) (cwolfus): Got it?
(21:16:12) (Crabby): Since I don't know the old rules they seem fine
(21:16:21) (cwolfus): It worked, Matthew
(21:16:26) (cwolfus): Cool
(21:16:31) (cwolfus): Everyone ready?
(21:16:37) (Euphyllia): yup
(21:16:40) (gomer): yar!
(21:16:43) (Crabby): (whispers) Can one mount LED lights inside a lumenarc (or other
MH) reflector?
(21:16:47) (camlov2): go go go!
(21:16:49) (Mike_
): Oh we message you Charles?
(21:16:50) ChatBot: (gomer) is now known as (Gomer(Tony)).
(21:16:50) ChatBot: (ibn) logs into the Chat.
(21:16:53) (cwolfus): Ok, here we go
(21:17:05) ChatBot: (Mike_
) is now known as (Mike).
(21:17:12) (cwolfus): Eric, use whisper to send me questions. Got it?
(21:17:18) (ibn): yup, got it
(21:17:20) (cwolfus): First Q: I'm interested in the leds Jake Adams installed on
1200 reef over in Reef Builders. What are you thoughts on the Reefbrite leds ?
http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/04/reefbrite-actinic-led-striplights-lig...
(21:17:21) ChatBot: (ibn) is now known as (Eric).
(21:17:23) (Crabby): (whispers) How deep will LEDs penetrate?
(21:17:40) ChatBot: (ian) is now known as (tony).
(21:17:42) (tony): jk
(21:17:46) ChatBot: (tony) is now known as (ian).
(21:17:47) ChatBot: (Euphyllia) is now known as (Matthew).
(21:17:50) ChatBot: (177ike) logs into the Chat.
(21:18:03) (Gomer(Tony)): (I'll /end when I and done answering)
(21:18:13) (Crabby): The Reefbrite LEDs are too blue.
(21:18:19) (Crabby): In my opinion
(21:18:40) (Gomer(Tony)): I haven't looked too extensively into those LEDs. With a
little speculation, there are somethings I like and dont like about them
(21:19:21) (cwolfus): That it?
(21:19:24) (Eric): (whispers) question for tony: what are his thoughts on UV leds.
are they necessary or is there already enough 'reds' in the white leds?
(21:19:24) (cwolfus):
(21:19:30) (Gomer(Tony)): I like how they are modular. They let you "adjust" the
color just like we do with T5's.
(21:20:08) (Crabby): Maybe I'm not an actinic-lover, but I like to see red and green
colors, not just blue
(21:20:21) (Gomer(Tony)): One thing I particularly like is that they offer a UV
solution. Almost every LED setup lacks 400-440nm. This wavelength is what causes a
fair bit of "pop" that you get with MH/VHOs.
(21:21:06) (Gomer(Tony)): What I don't like (speculation) is that they aren't the
"next gen" LEDs. This means that they are likely not nearly as efficient as Cree
and their ilk which are now very common in DIY builds.
(21:21:13) (Eric): (whispers) are we allowed to ask question in addition to the
current one that tony is answering?
(21:21:40) (Gomer(Tony)): If you aren't running SPS, I doubt you'll have trouble
with intensity. With SPS, I'd be suspicious. I'd personally let others try them a
bit before investing into the setup /end
(21:21:51) (cwolfus): (whispers to (Eric)) You can ask me, but not the group.
(21:21:59) ChatBot: (Slim_Jim989) logs into the Chat.
(21:22:07) (Matthew): So does that mean MH is ever so slightly more powerful?
(21:22:23) (ian): Matthew rules
(21:22:24) (Eric): (whispers) when tony said 'adjust' does he mean color or dimming
thereby changing the spectrum
(21:22:30) (Gomer(Tony)): More powerful is highly relative.
(21:22:47) (cwolfus): (21:22:24) (Eric): (whispers) when tony said 'adjust' does he
mean color or dimming thereby changing the spectrum
(21:23:26) ChatBot: (rtom) logs into the Chat.
(21:23:52) (Gomer(Tony)): Eric, by adjust the spectrum, I mean to the same extent
that we adjust colors with T5s. Want more pop, add actinic. Want more Par, add
more "white".
(21:24:02) (cwolfus): Tony, give me an EOM when you are waiting for the next
question
(21:24:09) (Gomer(Tony)): I could be wrong, but I don't think these have individual
dimming capacity
(21:24:27) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:24:32) (Eric): kk, I didn't think so either. I think the reason why they're so
blue is just due to them being actinic leds
(21:24:42) (Crabby): Can the spectral output of individual bulbs be programmed to
shift throughout the day?
(21:24:52) (cwolfus): Rules, Jon
(21:24:56) (cwolfus): (21:14:25) (Euphyllia): (whispers) I've heard that even though
the new improved LEDs put off more power than a MH, the light gets weaker through
water and is very low at the bottom. I heard that MH is better for lighting if the
tank is deep. I like the no heat from the LEDs but they seem they would make the
tank all blue-looking. This is a big deal for me since I'm deciding whether to get a
NC 150w MH-HQI or the new NC 150w LEDs... did that work as a PM?
(21:25:24) (Crabby): (whispers) OK. I do have a problem with Rules. Can the
spectral output of individual bulbs be programmed to shift throughout the day?
(21:25:35) (Gomer(Tony)): matthew, couple things there, and I'll address the easy
part first
(21:26:05) ChatBot: (reeffer) logs into the Chat.
(21:26:15) (cwolfus): (whispers to (Crabby)) Damn scientists and rules!
(21:26:44) (Gomer(Tony)): heat: LEDs do generate a lot of heat. They just don't do
it "towards" the tank. Rather they do it through the heatsink. I bring this up
because if you may be thinking of building this into your hood. If you can't pull
the heat out of the hood, you can still get substantial tank heating (albeit less
than MH of equivelant power)
(21:26:45) ChatBot: (reeffer) logs out of the Chat.
(21:27:01) ChatBot: (reeffer) logs into the Chat.
(21:27:28) (cwolfus): New people to this chat. If you have a question, use the
"send private message" to send it to me. I'm managing the question queue so it
doesn;t get too confusing.
(21:27:38) (Gomer(Tony)): The other part is often referred to as "punch" or
"penetration". LEDs can pack a ton of punch if you have them setup for that. There
is a lot of math behind it (I won't get into it), but it has to do with optics
(21:27:41) ChatBot: (sid700) logs into the Chat.
(21:27:42) ChatBot: (Slim_Jim989) has been logged out (Timeout).
(21:28:12) (Gomer(Tony)): If you run LEDs without optics, a MH will have more
penetrating power (ie, intensity drops off slower). If you use appropriate optics,
LEDs can drop off slower
(21:28:46) (Eric): (whispers) Thoughts on the new LEDs from Acriche?
(21:28:55) (Gomer(Tony)): I have a 130watt LED setup which bleached corals at the
top and bottom of my tank which was running a 250watt radium before hand
(21:28:58) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:29:08) (Matthew): So which would be better for nems? MH or LEDs? Does a 150w LED
put off as much power as a 250w MH?
(21:29:13) (cwolfus): (21:16:43) (Crabby): (whispers) Can one mount LED lights
inside a lumenarc (or other MH) reflector?
(21:29:20) (cwolfus): Matthew, RULES
(21:29:49) (cwolfus):
(21:30:13) (177ike): :warning:
(21:30:20) (177ike): sorry wrong button, ignore that
(21:31:03) (cwolfus): Shhh!
(21:31:08) (cwolfus):
(21:31:42) (177ike): i saw some LEDs with what looked like T5 reflectors, they any
good?
(21:31:45) (Eric): (whispers) for you charles: hope you're logging this chat.
there's a request in forum for the notes
(21:31:54) ChatBot: (marc) logs into the Chat.
(21:32:01) (Matthew): Rules... O:-D
(21:32:03) (Gomer(Tony)): You could, but I wouldn't. It wouldnt be nearly as
effective as idividual optics. Optics work are designed around the location of
light. Luminarcs for example are designed to have a MH bulb at the center and so
far down. LEDs will be spread out all through the reflector. That's the easy
explanation
I can talk to you in depth later if you want to go over the whole
optics math behind it
(21:32:14) (reeffer): any good websites to purchase LEDs?
(21:32:21) (Eric): Aight guys...if you have any questions, please direct them to
cwolfus in whisper.
(21:32:26) (cwolfus): New people to this chat. If you have a question, use the
"send private message" to send it to me. I'm managing the question queue so it
doesn;t get too confusing.
(21:32:47) (177ike): okay, will do next time
(21:33:05) (Gomer(Tony)): oops /end (did that clear it up enough?)
(21:33:12) (cwolfus): (21:17:23) (Crabby): (whispers) How deep will LEDs penetrate?
(21:33:17) (Gomer(Tony)): I'm trying to avoid going into too much math
(21:33:37) (Crabby): Math is OK. Even if we have partial differential equations.
(21:33:45) (cwolfus): haha
(21:33:47) (Crabby): I took 3 quarters of calculus!
(21:34:00) (camlov2): (whispers) Math teacher
(21:34:07) (cwolfus): Better than 30 cents
(21:34:23) (Eric): haha
(21:34:25) (marc): (whispers) came in little late....will there be a recap later i
can reread?
(21:34:27) (cwolfus): (whispers to (camlov2)) haha
(21:34:37) (cwolfus): We'll try, Marc
(21:34:48) (Crabby): Yeah. must be a d($)/dt in there somewhere.
(21:34:48) (Matthew): (whispers) In simple terms, would a 150w MH over a 28g be
better than
(21:34:50) (Gomer(Tony)): That depends on optics. Without optics, you are safe with
AIO tanks. You'll probably want to use optics beyond that. I'm using 60deg optics
and can probably go an easy 20+ inches. Going 40deg even deeper and so on. The
trade off, is that you lose coverage
(21:34:55) (marc): (whispers) k thanks
(21:35:04) (Matthew): (whispers) ... * Daylight – 25 x 3 Watt – 14K
* Dawn/Dusk – 4 x 3 Watt – Actinic/466nm
* Moon – 2 x 1 Watt – Nite-Vu/456nm
(21:35:26) (Crabby): By optics, these lenses come prefabbed in the LEDs I assume
(See Charles, not a question!)
(21:35:30) (Gomer(Tony)): You can theoretically use something like 6deg optics and
pierce down through a crazy deep tank...but you'd need a huge array to get the
coverage
(21:35:42) (cwolfus): Grrr
(21:35:57) (Gomer(Tony)): The optics are not the tiny domes on the LEDs. The optics
are the ~ 1" clear plastic things
(21:36:22) (cwolfus): (21:19:24) (Eric): (whispers) question for tony: what are his
thoughts on UV leds. are they necessary or is there already enough 'reds' in the
white leds?
(21:36:24) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end (I'll post a picture of one in a sec while the next
question gets posted)
(21:36:36) ChatBot: (177ike) logs out of the Chat.
(21:36:53) (Mike): (whispers) What type of thermal couplings would you need to
attach an LED to a heatsink? Is it like a CPU in that it's really smooth just a tad
of thermal paste for any minor imperfection?
(21:37:04) (Gomer(Tony)): well, reds and UV are on the opposite end of the spectrum
but I know what you mean
(21:37:54) (Gomer(Tony)): I have had really good growth with just the standard
blue/white mix. I don't think there is any red or UV lacking for growth. lacking
UV is more of an aesthetics thing. You lack some of the pop. LEDs do some colors
extremely well, but not so well on others.
(21:38:26) (cwolfus): (21:22:07) (Matthew): So does that mean MH is ever so slightly
more powerful?
(21:38:45) (Gomer(Tony)): reds are one of those colors. Some reds scream. Others
are a little lacking. Greens all scream. Blues do pretty well too. What you will
lack are whatever fluoresces at 400-430 or so nm
(21:38:51) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:39:07) (cwolfus): (21:22:07) (Matthew): So does that mean MH is ever so slightly
more powerful?
(21:40:28) (Gomer(Tony)): Matthew, sometimes yes, sometimes no. In general, watt
per watt, I think LED systems can put out as much PAR as most MH setups (not
talking about those few PAR monsters in the MH arena). I have no PAR measurements.
I can say though that my growth under ~130watts of LED is better/faster (ignoring
bleaching
than my 250 radium setup
(21:40:34) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:40:44) (cwolfus): (21:24:42) (Crabby): Can the spectral output of individual
bulbs be programmed to shift throughout the day?
(21:41:10) (Gomer(Tony)): real quick from earlier: LEDs
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/BeyondGomer/LED_Array/LEDarraywired.jpg
(21:41:24) (Gomer(Tony)): with optics
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/BeyondGomer/LED_Array/LEDarraywithlens.jpg
(21:41:42) (Crabby): cool. Thanks for posting those.
(21:41:45) (cwolfus): (whispers to (Matthew)) Your question regarding the actual LED
is too specific to be valuable to all. please send it as a PM to Tony. He'll
answer it.
(21:41:46) ChatBot: (sid700) logs out of the Chat.
(21:42:18) (Matthew): (whispers) By bleaching do you mean that the LEDs are so
powerful that they bleach corals in the top of the tank? Does MH do this? Would LEDs
bleach anemones or bother clowns?
(21:42:36) ChatBot: (sid700) logs into the Chat.
(21:42:40) (Gomer(Tony)): The output of a single LED emitter doesn't change much.
You can't really program it. You can get a small color shift when you under and
over drive them, but not enough to matter. When people "program" their color or do
anything color related, it is all in ratioing one color LED (like white) to another
(like blue).
(21:42:50) (Gomer(Tony)): )(/end
(21:42:54) (cwolfus): So short break, Is this format working for Tony? Everyone
else?
(21:43:21) (Gomer(Tony)): works great for me
I don't get lost and can actually
answer someone without getting distracted with another
(21:43:29) (Matthew): It works very well... just takes a bit to get used to the
rules! O:-D
(21:43:40) (cwolfus): LOL
(21:43:44) (Eric): that's all that matters too...as long as the speaker is comfy
w/it
(21:44:06) (cwolfus): Ok, then. Back to your regularly scheduled program...
(21:44:08) (Gomer(Tony)): At the very end, we can do a bit of free for all :-D
(21:44:11) (cwolfus): (21:25:24) (Crabby): (whispers) Can the spectral output of
individual bulbs be programmed to shift throughout the day?
(21:44:12) (Crabby): (whispers) The fixture here:
http://www.ecoxotic.com/community/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/CoralPlanningMap.pdf
doesn't list Acropora sp. Why? Typographic omission or problem with growing
acroporas under LED?
(21:44:22) (Gomer(Tony)): already did that one big C
(21:44:25) (Eric): done w/that one charles...next, haha
(21:44:37) (cwolfus): Oops
(21:44:39) (cwolfus): (21:28:46) (Eric): (whispers) Thoughts on the new LEDs from
Acriche?
(21:46:42) (Gomer(Tony)): I'm mixed. They are designed around home lighting. They
tend to be "warm" adn there is now offered "blue" component (although they
technically can do it easily). I'm not 100% sure how they operate, so I'm not sure
if you can dim their intensity simply with a variac or similar. No blue and no
dimming and then the SW market is killed.
(21:46:42) (Crabby): (whispers) On my christmas tree I had LED ornaments that color
shifted from blue-white-green, and I've seen others that shift red-purple-blue etc.
There only seems to be one bulb. Does the technology allowing the color shift not
apply at all to aquarium LEDs?
(21:46:47) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:47:00) (ian): (whispers) What does tony think about the maxspect g2
(21:47:01) (Gomer(Tony)): now = no
(21:47:05) (cwolfus): (21:29:08) (Matthew): So which would be better for nems? MH or
LEDs? Does a 150w LED put off as much power as a 250w MH?
(21:48:08) (Gomer(Tony)): Matthew, a proper LED setup and a proper MH setup will
both supply enough light for nems
150watts of LEDs is a lot of light (and pretty
$$$) (/end
(21:48:20) (cwolfus): (21:36:53) (Mike): (whispers) What type of thermal couplings
would you need to attach an LED to a heatsink? Is it like a CPU in that it's really
smooth just a tad of thermal paste for any minor imperfection?
(21:48:31) (Crabby): (whispers) Are there LEDs that could be mounted inside tanks
(like at the bottom edge) pointing up and in?
(21:49:17) (cwolfus): (whispers to (rtom)) RE: PM, sure!
(21:50:26) (Gomer(Tony)): Exactly mike. Thermal conductivity of air sucks. Thermal
conductivity of thermal paste is less sucky than air but way sucker than the metal
:-D Very smooth and flat surfaces and minimal thermal compound is idea. This
isn't a huge deal when lightly driven, but when you crank up the current to say
700-1000mA, you really need to have good thermal transfer (I resurfaced my heatsink
before mounting)
(21:50:29) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:50:35) (cwolfus): (21:44:12) (Crabby): (whispers) The fixture here:
http://www.ecoxotic.com/community/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/CoralPlanningMap.pd
f doesn't list Acropora sp. Why? Typographic omission or problem with growing
acroporas under LED?
(21:50:47) ChatBot: (Houser) logs into the Chat.
(21:50:54) (rtom): I'm not totally sure how the AC LED's from Acriche work, but I
suspect they have a built in AC/DC conversion circuit built into a substrate for the
LED. I think Tony is right.. Not too useful at this point.
(21:51:00) (cwolfus): New people to this chat. If you have a question, use the
"send private message" to send it to me. I'm managing the question queue so it
doesn;t get too confusing.
(21:51:07) (cwolfus): (not RTOM)
(21:51:58) (newhobby): i'm getting broken link
(21:52:02) (Gomer(Tony)): sorry, need to load that page. give me a sec
(21:52:18) (Crabby): you need to copy all the way to the .pdf
(21:52:44) (newhobby): still broken
(21:53:08) (Eric): 404 error...not found
(21:53:12) (Crabby):
http://www.ecoxotic.com/community/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/CoralPlanningMap.pdf
(21:53:25) (Crabby): works for me.
(21:53:28) (Gomer(Tony)): I'm not sure why it is left off. It could be an
accidental ommission or it could be that they don't trust their light to support
those high intensity species
(21:53:28) (rtom): As a chip guy, I worked a fair amount with thermal pastes and
materials. I worried about the long term reliability of thermal pastes. A much
better material is thermal conducting tape.
(21:53:41) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:53:47) (cwolfus): (from PM) What are your thoughts on the recently released
Ecoxotics leds ?
(21:54:04) (cwolfus):
http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/25/ecoxotic-releasing-453nm-blue-led-mod...
(21:54:34) ChatBot: (Houser) has been logged out (Timeout).
(21:55:35) ChatBot: (dswong01) logs into the Chat.
(21:55:47) (cwolfus): New people to this chat. If you have a question, use the
"send private message" to send it to me. I'm managing the question queue so it
doesn;t get too confusing.
(21:56:24) (Gomer(Tony)): I'm not familiar at all with them. They are running at
low power compared to what I'm familiar with. This may be intentional or a design
limitation. There are a lot of "knock off" LEDs coming into the market now. Some may
be good, but I don't trust them until proven
(21:57:06) (newhobby): 13W on 12 LEDs seems to be a type... too low
(21:57:16) (newhobby): typo*
(21:57:25) (Crabby): gotta go - thanks for the great information!
(21:57:29) (Gomer(Tony)): I'm not comfortable putting expensive lights over a way
more expensive coral tank, and without trusting the LEDs.
(21:57:29) ChatBot: (Crabby) logs out of the Chat.
(21:57:36) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(21:57:40) (cwolfus): (from PM)Are there certain spec's I should be looking for in
leds ? Should I be concerned about led companies going out of business like PFO b/c
of Orbitec's broad patent on leds ?
(21:57:54) (rtom): I agree with Tony. For LED fixtures, the most important thing is
the LED. We are talking about an LED which isn't going to lose PAR for years. I
know LumiLED's and Luxim stuff is good.
(21:58:32) ChatBot: (dswong01) logs out of the Chat.
(21:59:26) (Gomer(Tony)): The problem with PFO imo wasn't orbitec. I looked into
one unit and their thermal management was really bad. I wasn't surprised that LED
banks were failing. Heat and current are two things which make or break LEDs. As
for LEDs emitters, there are a few good companies I'd support
(22:00:41) (Gomer(Tony)): Cree, Luxeon, Soul are the ones I can think of right now
(there are a couple others). Any new LED should be able to draw about 3 watts per
emitter. If they are drawing 1 watt or there about, I'd be suspect of it's
efficiency and "age" of technology.
(22:01:00) (cwolfus): (whispers to (Gomer(Tony))) Tony, the long answers take to
long to type. Consider keeping them to a sentence or two and use ... if needed.
(22:01:07) (Gomer(Tony)): Orbitec is another can of worms. They are the devil.
(/end
(22:01:12) (Gomer(Tony)): ok
(22:01:16) (cwolfus): (from PM) Do you have an example wire diagram for the DIY
impaired?
(22:01:41) (Gomer(Tony)): the wiring diagram is HIGHLY dependent on the driver
(22:01:45) (rtom): I'm an IC design guy. Heat and out of spec current or voltage
will dramatically shorten the life of any circuit. If you keep it to the LED
spec's, they'll live for years and years. Exceed the specs and they can die in
minutes.
(22:02:06) (Gomer(Tony)): usually it is 6 LEDs in series and the leds of the driver
to the ends.
(22:02:08) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(22:02:11) (cwolfus): (from PM) Have you seen or are there companies working on a
type of connector that will allow users to easily replace bulbs with out the need to
solder?
(22:02:30) ChatBot: (kinetic_(art)) logs into the Chat.
(22:02:42) (Gomer(Tony)): There are a couple version of the "connector"
(22:02:43) (kinetic_(art)): hello!
(22:02:50) (cwolfus): Hi
(22:02:51) (cwolfus): Art. If you have a question, use the "send private message"
to send it to me. I'm managing the question queue so it doesn;t get too confusing.
(22:03:11) (Gomer(Tony)): PFO had banks of LEDs. 5 LEDs were on one board and if
one died you changed the board.
(22:03:30) (ian): (whispers) how many more questions till my maxspect g2 question?
(22:03:47) (cwolfus): Next
(22:03:52) (Gomer(Tony)): Most LEDs are available on MCPCB. In theory, they can
each have their own wiring harness. I don't see this as being economical
(22:03:54) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(22:03:57) (Eric): (whispers) Thoughts on a budget priced LED fixture such as the
various Maxspects?
(22:03:57) (cwolfus): (whispers to (ian)) oops
(22:04:03) (ian): (whispers) lol
(22:04:04) (cwolfus): (21:47:00) (ian): (whispers) What does tony think about the
maxspect g2
(22:04:38) (Gomer(Tony)): I dont know enough about it to hold an opinion
(22:04:41) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(22:04:47) (kinetic_(art)): (whispers) hey charles. probably just gonna listen in
for now. this is fun.
(22:04:49) (cwolfus): (21:48:31) (Crabby): (whispers) Are there LEDs that could be
mounted inside tanks (like at the bottom edge) pointing up and in?
(22:04:53) (ian):
http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/22/maxspect-g2-aquarium-led-light/
(22:05:16) (cwolfus): (whispers to (kinetic_(art))) yup
(22:05:22) (Gomer(Tony)): I have that link already ian, I just haven't put a lot of
time into looking through the bazillian companies poping up now :-D
(22:05:27) (cwolfus): (whispers to (kinetic_(art))) BTW, I have an iPhone
(22:05:38) (Gomer(Tony)): I'm not aware of any that could be, but it is technically
possible
(22:05:51) (kinetic_(art)): (whispers) what! perfect. i thought you had one of
those windoz thingamajigs!
(22:06:10) (Gomer(Tony)): just keep in mind that internal LEDs now dump ALL their
heat into the tank (/end
(22:06:17) (cwolfus): (from PM) Ive seen some LED fixtures in the US market already-
are they breaking patent laws from Orbitech?
(22:07:04) (cwolfus): (whispers to (kinetic_(art))) I just don;t have time for
sports
(22:07:08) (Gomer(Tony)): I don't doubt they are. Orbitech had an original patent
claim that they are now trying to expand on. Not every light system falls under
their umbrella. (/end
(22:07:18) (cwolfus): (from PM) Do you know of a source where you could get fixture
housing to place the LEDs in?
(22:07:21) ChatBot: (newhobby) has been logged out (Timeout).
(22:07:34) (kinetic_(art)): (whispers) hah, you're a perfect user
oh i might
have a question for Tony, though it might be sort of off topic:
(22:07:51) (cwolfus): (whispers to (kinetic_(art))) haha
(22:07:59) (Gomer(Tony)): Cree has a fixture and they just released a new one
http://www.creelighting.com/
(22:08:03) (kinetic_(art)): (whispers) Do you see those plasma lights doing better
or worse than the LED?
(22:08:17) (Gomer(Tony)): info on their new on at cree.com
(22:08:19) (Gomer(Tony)): (/end
(22:08:21) (cwolfus): (whispers to (kinetic_(art))) That's sorta the next q
(22:08:25) (cwolfus): (from PM) Do you see LED being the future of lighting? or will
plasmas and HIDs take the spotlight?
(22:08:33) (kinetic_(art)): (whispers) nice
(22:08:59) (Eric): here's a prototype that someone is working on ...
http://s710.photobucket.com/albums/ww106/pubicthrust/ADA-LED/
(22:09:46) (Gomer(Tony)): For lighting in general, I see them all holding a place.
LEDs work better then the other two in some situations and visa versa. I guess the
same can be said in reefing. They all have tradeoffs. I do see LEDs taking a bigger
market share than they have now by a fair bit (/end
(22:09:53) (cwolfus): (21:42:18) (Matthew): (whispers) By bleaching do you mean that
the LEDs are so powerful that they bleach corals in the top of the tank? Does MH do
this? Would LEDs bleach anemones or bother clowns?
(22:10:38) (Gomer(Tony)): LEDs and MH both have the potential to put out excessive
light in certain situations which with cause bleaching(/end
(22:10:48) (Gomer(Tony)): (I have no idea if it will bother clowns)
(22:11:07) (cwolfus): (But it won;t cbleach them)
(22:11:07) (Eric): Should be the same as MH as to how they react
(22:11:25) (cwolfus): So that was the last question in the queue
(22:11:26) (Eric): lol, true charles
(22:11:36) (Gomer(Tony)): heh
(22:11:47) (cwolfus): Tony, anything you want to say
(22:11:56) (cwolfus): before we allow the free for all
(22:12:09) ChatBot: (sid700) logs out of the Chat.
(22:12:23) (Gomer(Tony)): umm...thanks for tolerating me
I'll hang around for
just a little bit. I need to take some medicine and get to sleep soon though
(22:12:41) (Gomer(Tony)): feel free to use the Q&A thread on LED lighting!
(22:12:55) (Mike): thanks tony
(22:12:58) (Matthew): Is it free discussion time?
(22:13:02) (Gomer(Tony)): There are a lot of other knowledgeable people in the club
that can also help you with your LED woes.
(22:13:04) (cwolfus): Yup
(22:13:10) ChatBot: (Mike) logs out of the Chat.
(22:13:11) (Gomer(Tony)): np mike :-D
(22:13:28) (marc): thank you!
(22:13:31) (cwolfus): Go Matthew
(22:13:37) (Matthew): Thanks for the info!
(22:13:38) ChatBot: (reeffer) logs out of the Chat.
(22:13:43) (Gomer(Tony)): welcome all
(22:13:52) ChatBot: (marc) logs out of the Chat.
(22:14:13) (cwolfus): From PM: Anything on the horizon comparable with the Cree
XP-G? Or will it plateau and we should start looking at fixtures?
(22:15:04) (cwolfus): (whispers to (rtom)) You can send whispers by clicking a user
name on the right panel. Then use send private message.
(22:15:04) ChatBot: (ian) logs out of the Chat.
(22:15:12) (Matthew): Wait so should I introduce BTA at mid-tank and let them climb
as high as they want? Will they stop before the potential area where they may bleach
from severe lighting?
(22:15:35) (Gomer(Tony)): The XPG is pretty efficient, but we are only about 1/2 the
theoretical efficiency limit
(22:16:10) (Gomer(Tony)): I think it is somewhere around 250 or so lumens/watt
theoretical limit for a ~5-6000K Black body LED. (not 100% certain)
(22:17:01) (Eric): I'm assuming also that as efficiency continues to rise, that heat
would rise as well with them?
(22:17:15) ChatBot: (camlov2) logs out of the Chat.
(22:17:17) (Gomer(Tony)): I think LEDs are now viable in reefs with th eXPG, but
there will be something new coming out every year. I don't think you'll get too
much in the next few years without an revolutionary change (right now, everything is
evolutionary)
(22:17:29) (rtom): I think we won't see lots of inexpensive fixtures until the LED
technology calms down. Otherwise, someone makes a fixture only to get blown away
because someone else used the "next best thing" in LED's.
(22:18:09) (Gomer(Tony)): not really Eric. For a given amount of power (say 3
watts), you will get morelight and less heat as technology advances.
(22:18:40) (Gomer(Tony)): rtom, that is how it will be for about 5 years of so
(22:19:13) (Eric): So with that, is the assumption that xpg and xre mounted on the
same heatsink and same cooling solution, the xpg will be cooler while providing more
light, correct?
(22:19:15) (cwolfus): Tony, permission to post this transcript in the thread?
(22:19:35) (Matthew): OK I'm going to go now... I have French homework to do... So
thanks for all the info! I think that the rules helped keep the chat non-confusing
and I'll definitely be at the "Ask Norm Stuff He Knows". Thanks again!
)
(22:19:43) ChatBot: (Matthew) logs out of the Chat.
(22:19:53) (Eric): ...or is it, while the xpg will provide more light than xre, on
the same hardware, it will produce a tad more heat?
(22:20:04) (Gomer(Tony)): post away Charles :-D
(22:21:06) (Gomer(Tony)): technically, you will get less heat and more light, but
you will probably notice light output increasing faster than heat decreasing (as you
go up the efficiency curve)
(22:21:57) (rtom): For a given amount of current, the higher efficiency LED will
produce more PAR. Because the current and voltage are fixed, they will emit a
slightly lower amount of heat. But the reduction in heat is probably minimal.
Mostly, you will see it in the PAR.
(22:22:54) (Gomer(Tony)): And back to light fixtures for homes. Cree has a really
nice unit right now but that is for canned lighting. Thre is no good solution in
LEDs right now for traditional incans. It's a fundimental design problem of
radiation pattern and heat export
(22:22:54) (rtom): I doubt it will ever reduce heat to the point that you will not
need fans.
(22:23:31) (Gomer(Tony)): the Tj is below threshold on a MCBPC star at 350mA without
any active cooling
(22:25:08) (rtom): Really? Wow.. I'm impressed. With such a small surface area on
the MCPCB, I would think active cooling was necessary.
(22:25:59) (Gomer(Tony)): definitely necessary above that :-D Luxeon has a good
white paper (they flag it as outdated since it was posted with their old I and III)
on thermal management
(22:26:39) (Eric): the reason i'm asking is if i DIY an LED fixture now, can i use
the same heatsink and fan to keep it the same temp as i do now w/xpg
(22:26:43) (Gomer(Tony)): The gold mine imo is when we CAN run at 350ma and have
plenty of light...either that or solve the current/lumen droop
(22:26:52) (Gomer(Tony)): yes eric
(22:27:01) (Eric): awesome, thanks!
(22:27:49) (cwolfus): That's it?
(22:27:54) (cwolfus):
(22:28:07) (rtom): OK.. I'm out. Tony, we can chat at the swap.
(22:28:08) (Eric): if he's still up to it, haha
(22:28:08) (Gomer(Tony)): oh, ya. I'm calling bed time
(22:28:14) (Gomer(Tony)): sounds good!
(22:28:15) (cwolfus): Time for a beer...
(22:28:19) (kinetic_(art)): thanks tony! you're awesome
(22:28:20) (Eric): lol
(22:28:25) (cwolfus): +1
(22:28:25) (Gomer(Tony)): time for theraflu
(22:28:29) (rtom): You mean another beer?
(22:28:30) (Eric): great info. thanks again
(22:28:33) (cwolfus): haha
(22:28:37) (Eric): hope you have the night time theraflu
(22:28:40) (Gomer(Tony)): hope you all learned something from my rambling :-D
(22:28:43) (cwolfus): Great job, Tony
(22:28:55) (Eric): good enough
(22:28:58) (Gomer(Tony)): I do. got both. I still can't sleep much. I feel sorry
for my wife lol
(22:28:59) (rtom): thanks Tony. And thanks to Charles for moderating.
(22:29:06) (Gomer(Tony)): (not jus twhen I'm sick lol)
(22:29:19) ChatBot: (rtom) logs out of the Chat.
(22:29:25) ChatBot: (reefdan) logs into the Chat.
(22:29:27) (kinetic_(art)): is the topic now: "Beer"?
(22:29:30) ChatBot: (Gomer(Tony)) logs out of the Chat.
